Alfred Vernon Stanley born 1880

[dickiesam]

I am beginning to think that Alfred's parents names have a hint a fiction. A search of the GRO Death Index from 1875 to 1955 in Lancashire gave only one hit for Frederick W(illiam) Stanley and he was born abt 1882.

Deaths Mar 1928: Stanley, Frederick W [46] - W.Derby 8b 586

Outside Lancashire [all counties] there are only 4 deaths from 1875 to 1955, where the deceased was born between 1830 and 1870.

STANLEY FREDERICK W [bn abt 1870] 1926 - Banbury, Oxfordshire
STANLEY FREDERICK W [bn abt 1867] 1929 - Edmonton, Middlesex
STANLEY FREDERICK W [bn abt 1869] 1942 - Sleaford, Lincolnshire
STANLEY FREDERICK W [bn abt 1870] 1950 - Hastings, Sussex.

EDIT to add:
Similar searches for Eleanor/Ellen Vernon Stanley/Desmond didn't give any hits either. No hits on births for Desmond or Vernon for her either.

[simone]

Hi DS

Lt Col Frederick William Stanley died 09/08/1942, although d.o.b given as 27/05/1878.

from thepeerage.com

He gained the rank of Captain in the service of the 10th Hussars.1 He fought in the Boer War between 1899 and 1902, where he was severely wounded.1 He gained the rank of Captain and Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel in the service of the Lancashire Hussar Yeomanry.1 He fought in the First World War, where he was mentioned in despatches.1 He was decorated with the award of the Companion, Distinguished Service Order (D.S.O.) in 1917.1

still think 'Alfred' may either have served under him, or if he was from Knowsley knew enough about the family to create an identity when he emigrated using the name.

Been having a look for Alfred Desmond or Vernon... no luck yet to say anything conclusive

maybe try concentrate on Eleanor for a bit.... there was a Lady Eleanor of Desmond deep in the past, from Ireland. can't say I'm not trying every avenue can you

Sorry for Julie but this one has us all stumped doesn't it

[MaryA]

I've been looking at other Stanleys with similar names to see if "Vernon" comes into the other branch, but no luck so far.

[dickiesam]

Having scoured the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses [all counties] for an Alfred Stanley born between 1875 and 1885, with a farming father named Frederick, let alone a sister Ivy and come up with zilch I am now fairly sure Alfred was not born a Stanley.

If he really was named Alfred at birth and born in or near Knowsley there are only 245 Alfreds and Freds registered at Prescot between 1877 and 1881!

[simone]

Haha you've been busy DS counting Alfreds!
I'm not so sure he was born an Alfred either! And Ivy may not even really be an Ivy

Just one clue is all we need .....

[dickiesam]

And Ivy may not even really be an Ivy
Just one clue is all we need .....

Ivy could be a preferred second forename or a familial for something like Evelyn. And no Ivy Stanley born in Lancashire 1870 to 1900.

[julielake]

I've tried uploading again. Hopefully this is clearer.
I have divided it into two separate images.

[julielake]

I've just been reading over everyone's comments and talking about it with my family... we wondered could he have deserted from Boer War service (if he did intact serve that is) ??

[simone]

I would say mum's name could be Elena/ Helena?

There is a Helena Desmond b 1849 in Liverpool daughter of Cornelius and Mary.
Helena Desmond

Birth Date:29 May 1849
Baptism Date:9 Jun 1849
Parish:St Nicholas, Lancashire, England
Father Cornelius Desmond
Mother Maria Cagan

Cornelins Desmond -Mariner, full age, Crosby St
Marriage Date:6 Apr 1848
Parish:Liverpool, St Barnabas
Spouse's Name:Mary Keon , age 20, Crosby St
Father's Name:Daniel Desmond , Turner
Spouse Father's Name:Thomas Keon, Farmer


Can't seen them in 1851 ( there is a family in Kent which isn't them as they are on later census too).
She is with them in 1861 at Lower Frederick St Liverpool

RG 9; Piece: 2674; Folio: 23; Page: 25
Corneilus Desmond 38 b Ireland seaman
Mary Desmond 33
Ellen Desmond 11
Corneilus Desmond 3

She is a servant in 1871 ? for Hegarty family at Gt Howard St
RG10; Piece: 3767; Folio: 115; Page: 2

don't know where she is after this..

Simone x

[julielake]

To answer Simone's question... my great aunt said she doesn't recall him talking about England at all other than his sister Ivy... I'm not sure about him keeping in contact with anyone over there. I'll give her a ring later this week.. and ask her some more questions. I'll also ask her what he told them about his Boer war service.

I really appreciate everyone's help so far and am hopeful to find some clues and answers

[simone]

I wonder if this is Ellen Desmond.. tried at Liverpool for fraud 27/10/1871.. 6 months imprisonment

Ellen Desmond
ate of Trial:27 Oct 1871
Trial Year:1871
Location of Trial:Lancashire, England
Sentence:Imprisonment


she obtained a coat and a pair of trousers on false pretence according to the Liverpool Mercury.. she went to Mrtha Murphy who was in the employ of a Mr Gale and said that Mr Gale had sent her for his coat as he was going down to the ship.. she also got the trousers.. and the she pawned them

really we still have no idea at al who Alfred Vernon Stanley was, do we?

Look forward to hearing what you find out Julie

Simone x

[dickiesam]

Really we still have no idea at all who Alfred Vernon Stanley was, do we?

The absence of his birth, the absence of his alleged parents in any census, the absence of his alleged parents' marriage, the absence of his mother's birth.... all strongly suggest Alfred created a new persona for himself for some reason. He appears to have knowledge of Knowsley and could have knowledge of the family of the Earl of Derby and of the farmed estates.

There is the possibility he was illegitimate and his birth was registered under another name. Perhaps fathered by someone in 'the big house'. That he may have been sent to a grammar school would support a 'maintenance' theory. There are a lot of Alfreds whose births are registered at Prescot in the years he could have been born. And perhaps he did a runner from South Africa?

Do we know when and where he arrived in Australia and what vessel he was on?

[simone]

UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960

Name: Alfred Stanley
Gender: Male
Age: 25
Birth Date: abt 1882
Departure Date: 6 Jun 1907
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination Port: Sydney, Australia
Ship Name: Runic


Blue

This one Blue found could still be him?

There are 2 lots of nurse children with different families in 1881 in Knowsley...
Walter Hilbert b 1878
Flora Hilbert b 1876

Henry H Pettit b 1878
Marian Pettit b 1879

There's a Marian Pettit b 1879 Roby on the 1901 at Bristol with her father Francis D Pettit who may be her
RG13; Piece: 2399; Folio: 18; Page: 27

Henry possibly in London in 1911 RG14; Piece: 1164

Not sure about Walter, b Liverpool, or Flora Hilbert yet (Flora b New Brighton, Cheshire)
living amongst farming familes 1881
RG11; Piece: 3722; Folio: 139; Page: 9

[simone]

These entries also in the Casualties of the Boer War on Anc*

Stanley
Casualty Type:Prisoner
Casualty Date:23 Aug 1900
Casualty Place:Geluk
Rank:Private
Force:South Africa Field Force
Regiment:Liverpool Regiment
Battalion:1st Battalion
Number:4552
Remarks:Released

Stanley
Casualty Type:Prisoner
Casualty Date:17 Jul 1900
Casualty Place:Waterval
Rank:Private
Force:Natal Field Force
Regiment:Border Regiment

don't know the initials of those 2

also

A Stanley
Casualty Type:Wounded
Casualty Date:8 Jan 1901
Casualty Place:Albertina
Rank:Private
Force:South Africa Field Force
Regiment:1st Dragoons
Number:3838

don't know if any way of finding out more on these

[julielake]

I spoke with my great aunt and this is what she recalls...

Alfred went from England to Boer war and then from Africa to Australia.
Alfred was good friends with Lord Lampton and named a daughter Emma Lampton Stanley after him.

As far as my aunt knows he did not keep in contact with anyone from England. Alfred's home in Australia was decimated by bush fires a couple of times so all letters etc were lost. My aunt does not know if Ivy was younger than Alfred or not.

I have another great aunt who is older and may have some different memories, so I will also ring her. And post here what she remembers.

Just wondering is it possible to search for a family using the first names of the children e.g. Alfred & Ivy?

We are so appreciative of your help, thank you

[simone]

Hi Julie

I've tried allsorts of combinations using just christian names on their own, together, with parents, parents on their own, or together nothing seems to jump out. As DS said Ivy could be a pet name for her

hope your other Aunt comes up with something

Maybe have a look into Lord Lampton... can't see a Lampton, but a Lambton... Earl's of Durham family

[simone]

Deaths Mar 1928: Stanley, Frederick W [46] - W.Derby 8b 586

.

There is probate for this one, lived at 20 Marion Road, Orrell, Bootle, died 5/3/28, probate 4/4/28 widow Sarah Ann Stanley.

[MaryA]

He would appear to be born Dec 1881 STANLEY Frederick William Chorlton 8c 747. Later census gives him as born Manchester and Sarah born Cardiff, living in Monfa Road, Orrell, and he was a Joiner at the Wire Rope Works.

[dickiesam]

I don't wish to appear in any way to be disparaging about Alfred but the total lack of corroborative evidence linking him to any of the family names he provided makes me think he was something of a Walter Mitty character who, for reasons we may never know, created a new persona for himself before he arrived in Australia. There is the possibility that he deserted the Army in South Africa and became a merchant seaman to get out of the country. He may have been born in 1880 but not as Alfred Vernon Stanley.

Is it known when and where, and on what vessel, he was aboard when he arrived there?

[simone]

There is just nothing is there not even on other family members.. I've even tried names the other way around, e.g William Frederick