Major brick wall - help needed with Campbell and Manion

[dlh1]

Ok thanks guys. I'll get the birth cert and be in touch. Keep an eye open for me though. If anyone sees the baptism for one of their Children, Ellen in 1868 please let me know. It's the only one i've not been able to find.

I'll keep you posted

[dlh1]

Just an update - I can't seem to find any marriages for a Patrick Campbell marrying any Mary between 1860 and 1868 so I don't think it's an issue that the wife had a different surname, i really don't think it's been recorded. But ill get the birth cert to be sure.

[dickiesam]

Just an update - I can't seem to find any marriages for a Patrick Campbell marrying any Mary between 1860 and 1868 so I don't think it's an issue that the wife had a different surname, i really don't think it's been recorded.

A marriage would have been recorded as a statutory requirement. There is a possibility that the marriage information recorded by the local District Registrar was not transferred to the GRO 'successfully' in his quarterly returns, this was a rare occurrence. However, the marriage record will still be in the originating District Office. Because at least two births of children were registered at the Liverpool Registry Office I suggest you should direct an enquiry there.
http://liverpool.gov.uk/contact-us/gene ... ss#address

But do bear in mind that because divorce was out of reach for the average person, there were many instances of couples purporting to be married when in fact they were not. Like many on this forum I have instances of such 'common-law' arrangements including a g.father and two g.g.fathers!

[simone]

Ellen's Baptism

Helena Mangin (Campbell)
Birth Date:
8 Jun 1868
Baptism Date:
20 Jun 1868
Parish:
Holy Cross
Mother's Name:
Maria Mangin





notice Richard and Julia Mangan godparents? which would tie in with family I mentioned earlier...Julia again could be the sister to Mary/Malley, or could the mother Mary, married to Richard also be known as Julia?

[dickiesam]

Well spotted Simone.

So Ellen was baptised as Ellen Mangan, mother Mary Mangan? I see the left hand 'name' column has Ellen (Campbell) Mangan [as written with the parenthises]. That tells me the parents were not married but the father had acknowledged his responsibility. There isn't a Mangan or Ma* birth in the GRO Index so I believe Ellen was probably registered as a Campbell when the dust had settled.

[dlh1]

Thanks Simone. In the 1881 census, Ellen is down as Ellen (Williaminer) Campbell. Does anyone know what this might mean?

[dlh1]

I think i'll have to just assume that they never married. I'll order Ellens birth cert to see what it says on there. That probably would have been registered after her baptism.

[simone]

Hi

Do you have access to the census images?
notice Williamier is crossed out, so some sort of enumeration error? also nearly called daughter Mary, Polly




I did crop it .. honest

[simone]

do you have these marriages

Ellenam Campbell
Marriage Date:6 Sep 1887
Parish:All Souls
Spouse's Name:Jacobum O'Connor
Father's Name:Patricii Campbell
Spouse Father's Name:Patricii Oconnor

possible for Ann
Annam Compbell
Marriage Date:4 Feb 1896
Parish:Our Lady of Lourdes and St Bernard
Spouse's Name:Thomam O'Connor
Father's Name:Patrick Compbell
Spouse Father's Name:Thoma Oconnor

some latin in margin of this one referring to Thomas, 5/5/1896, but I don't know latin

[dickiesam]

Thanks Simone. In the 1881 census, Ellen is down as Ellen (Williaminer) Campbell. Does anyone know what this might mean?

As Simone suggests that is almost certainly a mistake by the enumerator when he transcribed the Household Census Form onto the Census Summary Sheet. It is the latter that we see the images of until the 1911, when we see the actual Household Census Form.

The transcription would have been a laborious process, copying the varied literacy efforts of the head of household. Quite often the earlier census household forms were completed by children in the family as many parents were not sufficiently literate to do it themselves.

[dlh1]

Do the household census forms exist or do we just have access to the summary forms like the ones that appear on numerous genealogical sites?

[dlh1]

do you have these marriages

Ellenam Campbell
Marriage Date:6 Sep 1887
Parish:All Souls
Spouse's Name:Jacobum O'Connor
Father's Name:Patricii Campbell
Spouse Father's Name:Patricii Oconnor

possible for Ann
Annam Compbell
Marriage Date:4 Feb 1896
Parish:Our Lady of Lourdes and St Bernard
Spouse's Name:Thomam O'Connor
Father's Name:Patrick Compbell
Spouse Father's Name:Thoma Oconnor

some latin in margin of this one referring to Thomas, 5/5/1896, but I don't know latin

Hi Simone - yes I have the marriage for Ellen, but Anne died as an infant so the marriage for her must be someone elses. Re the census return, i think the williaminer bit must be a mistake. I've never heard of the name Williaminer before - obviously some form of William.

[dickiesam]

Do the household census forms exist or do we just have access to the summary forms like the ones that appear on numerous genealogical sites?

The original Household Report Forms, 1841 to 1901, which were transcribed into the Census Enumerator's Books, were destroyed many years ago. Only the pages from the Books [aka Summary Forms] for those years still exist and they are the images you see online.

From: http://www.historyhouse.co.uk/articles/census.html
Enumerators delivered to each household a Householder's Schedule and written instructions as to how the form was to be completed. The head of the household was required by law to complete the form on the Sunday night detailing all those persons who were sleeping in the house that night. Night-workers who were away working, but would be returning to the household that morning to sleep, were also to be listed.

Special forms were supplied for asylums, hospitals, schools and similar institutions with over 100 occupants.

The enumerator returned the following day and collected the Householder's Schedule. They checked the contents for discrepancies and clarified anything they did not understand, or helped the householder to complete the Schedule.

Once all the Householder's Schedules were collected, the enumerator entered all the particulars in the Census Enumerator's Book '‘CEB’'. Both sets of documents were then submitted for checking and examination by the District Registrar before they were sent to the Census Office in the General Register Office in London (later became Office of Population Censuses and Surveys). There they were again checked, and with a few exceptions for the 1841 - 1901 census, the Householders’' Schedules were destroyed. The 1911 census Householders' Schedules have been retained. It is from the CEBs that the various census population statistics were extracted and published.

[dlh1]

Ahhhh grrrr that's such a shame. People need to stop destroying things. They'd be really valuable these days for genealogists.

[dlh1]

Don't know how i missed this, but Patrick was down as a Widow in 1861 census, so he must have been married before meeting Mary Manion. Could this be the reason he and Mary never married? Not sure how to attache images, but have made a go below. See attached.

[dlh1]

http://postimg.org/image/ko9yldpq9/

[dickiesam]

Don't know how i missed this, but Patrick was down as a Widow in 1861 census, so he must have been married before meeting Mary Manion. Could this be the reason he and Mary never married? Not sure how to attache images, but have made a go below. See attached.

This is basically the image...
1861: RG09 Piece: 2653 Folio: 120 Page: 22
Address: 18 Wright Street, Liverpool.
CAMPBELL, Patrick Head Widower 33 1828 Labourer Dock - Ireland
CAMPBELL, Bridget Mother Widow 60 1801 Formerly Dressmaker - Ireland
CAMPBELL, Mary Sister U/m 26 1835 - Ireland
CAMPBELL, James Brother U/m 23 1838 Labourer Dock - Ireland
CAMPBELL, Bridget Sister U/m 18 1843 - Ireland

I have to ask why you are sure that this Patrick Campbell is the same man who later had children with Mary Mangan/Mannion? His age is about right and he is from Ireland, but since he was a widower there would have been no hindrance to a marriage to Mary. I would not be happy to make the connection on just one apparent fact [born Ireland] and an age which may not be accurate.

[dlh1]

This is definitely him. I've traced his burial with his wife Mary to be with his sister Bridget who married a Bannon. He also died at 3 tenterden street where his daughter ellen lived. His brother James lived at no.1 Tenterden Street. I've hired a genealogist to help me find records from ireland and I'm going to Dublin and Headford, Galway in 2 weeks to look at records and visit the cemetery in Headford. Just wish I could find a marriage cert for him.