Help with transcription please

[simone]

Mary Dixon b 1833 marries Michael Welsh at St Peter's Priory in 1853, from Crosbie Street, father Michael.

still in Crosbie st in 1861
RG11; Piece: 3613; Folio: 37; Page: 15

will try and find them on census later to see is anything there..

trouble with catholic marriages on ancestry... no witnesses that may give clues

[simone]

It was at St Peter's. I've added the marriage on to a list I have to look up on Tuesday so hope to get a result then.

thanks Mary

would be good if witnesses came up trumps!

[SylviaB]

Thanks to all helping me with my Dixons/Roberts, particularly Mary and Simone who is digging deep, so much so that I am overwhelmed by all the info!. I am replying shortly now to acknowledge your help so far. As I have serious problems with my disabled step daughter at the moment, I won't be able to spend much time trying to make sense of it all.

But....I'm still very puzzled by the 1881 census and the names. The daughter, down as "wife!" seems to be Mary J, but my gran was definitely Mary Ellen and none of my maternal aunts had her names or Bridget/Jane, not that this is any proof of relationship. There are many coincidences - the address, "Jane"(see wedding cert.), a daughter,7 Mary and a Dixon living with them, but if "Jane" was 36 in 1881, she would have been 19 when she married William Ashton Roberts in 1864 and not "full age" and a widow! And is Dixon her previous married name or not? How do we solve that one, when her father is un-named on the wedding certificate. Why was he un-named? Didn't she know him? Was she illegitimate?

Sorry to leave you all with more questions, but from knowing nothing about Bridget/Mary Jane to seeing all these possibilities is mindblowing! But many thanks, all the same. I'll try and get back in a few days to study all the findings.

SylviaB

[MaryA]

It's the way to do it Sylvia, looking all around the problem and also keeping an open mind, I never take anything on a census entry 100% for granted, after all who knows who gave the details and to who, and how they decided to write them down

[dickiesam]

Hi Sylvia,
As MaryA says, never take what is written on a census as gospel and keep your tongue in cheek for marriage certs! There are mistakes in the original census household forms, of which the 1911 is the only one to survive. And there's many a slip between the household form and the enumerator's summary sheet which is what you see online. Writing 'wife' as the relationship of a 7 year old Mary Ellen to the head of household is typical. And many basic errors were as a result of the person completing the household form, often done by a literate child or youngster for parents who were not very literate.

And the same goes for marriage certs... Documentary proof of a person's age was not usually required. Ladies could lose a couple of years while men often gained a few! One of my grandfathers gained 5 years when he married the 17 year old daughter of a miner who had borne a child by him. He said he was 23 but was in fact 18!

[simone]

we've had this a few times before haven't we... catholic families using different names... wrong initials being recorded on census.... children down as wives/husbands, wouldn't rule anything out in this game maybe she had a falling out with dad, perhaps he didn't agree with her choices if of a different denomination, so maybe easier for her to simply leave him off the certificate, make out he's passed over perhaps.

need a little thing to give us a link.
may try and look at Potts' marriages later

[simone]

Sorry deleted last 2 posts as they concerned Mary E Dixon... when should really have been Mary E Roberts getting carried away with the Dixon name

[simone]

anyone had a look at this couple

Edward Dixon
Marriage Date:
7 Dec 1848
Parish:
St Peter Priory
Spouse's Name:
Bridget Cawfield
Father's Name:
Roger Dixon
Spouse Father's Name:
Michael Cawfield

name as Cawfell on lancs bmd
both married from Crosbie st, which is where Cecelia's family lived all those years.

I can't find them on census after marriage
there's a wigan couple which could be them, people did come from wigan to marry

[simone]

only other possible child I can see is

Alfred John Roberts
Birth Date:
29 Jun 1871
Baptism Date:
16 Jul 1871
Parish:
Liverpool, St Peter
Father's Name:
William Roberts
Mother's Name:
Bridget Roberts

address Conway St, William is a labourer


Alfred married Eliza Williams in 1896, puts dad as a labourer.

Alfred John Roberts of Cedar Str
Age:25
Marriage Date:
15 Nov 1896
Parish:Bootle, St Matthew
Spouse's Name:Eliza Williams of Strand Road
Father's Name:William Roberts
Spouse Father's Name:Edwin Williams

can't see Alfred with mum and dad on census


still keep going back to Mary Ellen's birth being Fletcher Street, and the family Mary found at Fletcher Street in 1881
interesting that Cecelia married a John ROBERTS....

Simone x

[MaryA]

Been doing a bit of a run around with my own Kents/Halls after my latest discovery and trying to connect two families together, I've found it surprising just how often the same families inter-married. So another Dixon/Roberts connection wouldn't surprise me at all.

Have been trying to check Conway Street in the 1871 census - RG 10/3785 104-105 some of it is quite faint but I haven't had any luck finding any Roberts.

Added after - there was such a short Conway Street and "Back" on the above reference I checked the street maps and there appears to be one in Everton and one in Bootle as well, probably the one I was looking wasn't correct. Can anybody check Conway Street, Everton for any Roberts please?

[dickiesam]

Have been trying to check Conway Street in the 1871 census - RG 10/3785 104-105 some of it is quite faint but I haven't had any luck finding any Roberts.

Added after - there was such a short Conway Street and "Back" on the above reference I checked the street maps and there appears to be one in Everton and one in Bootle as well, probably the one I was looking wasn't correct. Can anybody check Conway Street, Everton for any Roberts please?

Did the walk... Found just one Roberts.

1871: RG10 Piece: 3814 Folio: 54 Page: 52
Address: Conway Street, Everton, Liverpool
ROBERTS, Thomas Head 23 1848 Blacksmith - Liverpool.
ROBERTS, Sarah Wife 20 1851 - Liverpool

[MaryA]

Thanks for trying, even with all her changes in names, I don't think we can match William and Mary/Jane/Bridget/Bodelia to read Thomas and Sarah

[simone]

Edward and Bridget had a child Margaret in 1849, the year after their marriage

Margaret Dixon
Birth Date: 1 Oct 1849
Baptism Date: 2 Oct 1849
Parish:St Patrick
Father's Name: Edward Dixon
Mother's Name:Bridget Caulfield

still haven't found this couple on the census

Little Margaret looks to have died

Margaret Dixon
Birth Year:
abt 1849
Age:3 Days
Burial Date:
6 Oct 1849
Parish: Liverpool, St Martin-in-the-Fields
address is Crosbie St

can't see any other children to this couple, so has Edward died too

[simone]

going back to Cecelia Dixon.. she looks to be daughter of Michael and Ann/Nancy..

In 1851 they are in St Thomas district
HO107; Piece: 2181; Folio: 635; Page: 25
they are in Crosbie street where they stay for next 2 census'
Michael Dixon 42 b ireland
Nancy Dixon 36 b ireland
Mary Dixon 18 b ireland
Bridget Dixon 13 b ireland
Ann Dixon 11 b liverpool
Margaret Dixon 9 b liverpool
Celia Dixon 7 b liverpool

1861
RG 9; Piece: 2678; Folio: 47; Page: 47
Michael Dickson 52
Nancy Dickson 45
Jane Dickson 19
Margaret Dickson 17
Cealy Dickson 15


1871
RG10; Piece: 3777; Folio: 47; Page: 32
Michael Dixon 60
Ann Dixon 48
Ann Dixon 26
Cecelia Dixon 22

notice 1851 there is a Bridget, but by 1861 she is possibly Jane, and then 1871 not at home

1881 census
25 Fletcher Street, Toxteth Park - address given on Mary Ellen's baptism!!!
Check it out yourself, they appear to be sharing an dwelling with a Roxburgh family
Jane? Roberts Head M 36
Mary E Wife?? heck does the enumerator not look what he's writing age 7
Sophia? Dixon Sister in Law Mar 34
All Born Liverpool
RG11; Piece: 3636; Folio: 13; Page: 19

so could Jane Roberts be this Bridget/ Jane... maybe Bridget was a name given to her at confirmation

also maybe Cecelia has said she is sister in law rather than sister because Jane is married and so perhaps the sister in law bit means in relation to the husband?

what do you think? possible?

Simone x

just to add to this earlier post, the family are in Crosbie St in 1841 too.
HO107 566 piece 16 FOLIO 21 PAGE 37
bad transcription though
Michl Dixon 30
Mary Dixon 10
Buyart Dixon 5 (Bridget)
Mary Dixon 2 (Margaret?)
Ebrick Conlon 25

Plenty of jiggery pokery with ages of this family isn't there

[simone]

There's another Bridget Dixon in Crosbie Street in 1841 age 1, with Edward Dixon age 20 in the house.. right mish mash of a household, can't fathom it out..


James Whight 55
May Dixon 45
Domamill Conell 20
Edward Dixon 20 (this could be the Edward who marries Bridget Caufield/Cawfield/fell in 1848, he marries from Crosbie St )
Mary Rogers 20
Bridget Rogers 5
Bridget Dixon 1
Ann Cunard 20
Mich Hogan 20
David Keneday 35
Mancy Aslett 30

[simone]

ah ha got it... Edward Dixon married Bridget Cawfield in 1848 as stated before...
she must pass away because in 1856 he marries Martha McKinley... they are on 1861 census with Bridget Dixon age 20, who is prob that 1 year old in 1841 she is listed as daughter but is she?


Edward Dixon
Marriage Date:
7 Dec 1848
Parish:
St Peter Priory
Spouse's Name:
Bridget Cawfield
Father's Name:
Roger Dixon
Spouse Father's Name:
Michael Cawfield

Edwardum Dixon
Marriage Date:
5 Feb 1856
Parish:
St Peter Priory
Spouse's Name:
Martham Mckinley
Father's Name:
Rogeri Dixon
Spouse Father's Name:
Joannis Mcleod


1861
RG 9; Piece: 2678; Folio: 39; Page: 32
Edward Dickson 50 b ireland
Martha Dickson 40 b scotland
Bridget Dickson 20 daur
Margaret Dickson 4 daur
Ellen Jones 50 lodger
Eliza Jones 13 lodger
Alice McKiver 6 lodger

(and then it looks like Martha remarries in 1876 to Thomas Moran )

still can't see Edward or young Bridget in 1851

[MaryA]

Going great guns Simone, seems to be more Bridget Dixons about than we knew.

Apart from the marriage I have taken a note of are there any others that need looking up in the RO tomorrow?

[simone]

Will have to check later and let you know
Need to revisit a james f dixon who is 17 in 1861 as an apprentice victullar
Notice a Richard lloyd and family next door to him . Richard Lloyd was a witness at roberts/dixon marriage, although there are a few Richard lloyds so may be coincidence
James dies in 1869 I think. Can't remember if I worked him put to be child of edward and martha

[MaryA]

In and out rather a lot today, but if you can work out anything else needing to be looked up, I'll pick up the details this evening.

[simone]

sorry Mary... not got to this yet been out to Liverpool xmas shopping.. nightmare.. worn out now got to get on with a few other things now so may not get to it later either, will see how it goes.

Lets hope William or Bridget Roberts, or even Mary Ellen Roberts has witnessed Cecelia's marriage got to be a clue somewhere

Simone x