Another mystery - Arthur Gissing UPDATED

[erika]

How about this one I suggested earlier

Possibly being fanciful here I found a possible marriage of a Mary Ann Button to a John Girling Dec 1853 Blything vol 4a page 1497. I can't find a Mary Ann Girling with a husband John in 1861.

Familysearch has the following in 1871 which could be them:

Registration district: Blything

John Girling, head, age 48, born Westleton, Suffolk
Mary Ann Girling, wife, age 48, born Aldringham, Suffolk
Ishmael Girling, son, age 16, born Leiston, Suffolk
Louisa Girling, daughter, age 11, born Leiston, Suffolk
Elizabeth Girling, daughter, age 8, born Leiston, Suffolk


Alison

Oh Alison, I was just hoping that there had been a transcription error and Girling should have read Gissing and then you find this

I don't know what to think now, but having got the birth cert yesterday for Henry, I do know the parents names now.
I will just have to wait for Arthur's cert and see what's next.

I do have a 1871 census for John & Mary Ann Gissing and family living in Hackney which is all correct.


Thank you Mary for the article web page, very interesting, not surprising we all go round in circles sometimes

[erika]

Latest update in this saga and I'm afraid the mystery deepens.

The birth cert arrived for Arthur Gissing Button born 1849, in Bredfield
Father - John Button
Mother Mary Ann Button formerly Cook, I think.

Well I've searched for a marriage for these two from 1837 - 1856 and nothing.

The only census is the 1851 which was found earlier with an Arthur Button, born Bredfield living with his grandfather Jonathan Button and family, but no Mary Ann. Incidentally there was a family called Cook living next door to them in 1851.
I looked for a Mary Ann Cook in the 1841 and the nearest I got was a family living in Carlton Green.
HO 107, Piece 1025, Folio 4, Page 26
There were a few others, but seemed too far away from Woodbridge area.



I think there is definitely something fishy about this whole business and can't quite work out what to do next

Answers on a post card please

[dickiesam]

Would the fact that John Button, the father, is down on the birth cert as an 'Attorney's clerk' be a clue for the 1851 census? And was it that John was not married to Mary the mother, but did the 'right thing' by her when registering the birth of Arthur. Would explain why they are not together in 1851. And Mary would not have to prove she was married either.

[erika]

The trouble is I want John Gissing to be the father!!!! and there doesn't seem to be any evidence of a John Gissing marrying a Mary Ann Button or Cook.

Goodness knows what went on in these villages years ago

I couldn't find a John Button in 1851 as an Attorney's clerk, but will keep looking

[dickiesam]

OK, maybe John Gissing was the father and wasn't married to Mary when Arthur was born, so Mary Button 'invented' a husband John Button [aka Gissing in real 'bed' life] to protect her reputation.

1851:
HO107 - Piece: 1518 - Folio: 350 - Page: 43.
Registration District: Clerkenwell
Address: 40 Hamilton Row, Saint James Clerkenwell, Finsbury, Middlesex

GISSING, Gerrard - Head - U/m - 63 - Oil And Colone Mar - Bacton, Suffolk
GISSING, Mary Ann - Sister - U/m - 58 - Assistant - Wickham, Suffolk
GISSING, Charlotte Bloomfield - Sister - Widow - 51 - House Keeper - Wickham, Suffolk
GISSING, John - Nephew - U/m - 24 - Clerk - Mendlesham, Suffolk

[Bertieone]

Could Arthur be one of the children of this marriage,

https://familysearch.org/search/records ... ame%3Acook~

also a death for Mary Button, march qtr 1851, Woodbridge, 12 356.

[Alison C]

I think the Jonathan Button in the above baptisms is the one who was living with Arthur Button in the 1851 census i.e. Arthur's grandfather.

This website has baptisms, marriages and burials for Dennington, Suffolk
http://www.pope-genealogy.me.uk

It shows all the baptisms for Jonathan Button and Mary Ann Cook's children.

It also shows a burial for Mary Ann Button, wife of Jonathan in 1845 (aged 52) - which explains why Jonathan is a widower in 1851. Also a burial for Jonathan Button himself, aged 76, in 1870.

...and a burial for James Gobbett Button, described as "baseborn" son of Betsey Button in May 1851.

Alison x

[Hilary]

She may have lied! Maybe she was hoping the father would marry her!

I have seen a birth certificate of 1852 were the mother has stated the father and given her name as that of the father and her maiden name all implying they were married. They weren't and didn't get married for nearly 7 years.

I think before 1875 the mother could state the father's name even if they weren't married, after 1875 the father had to be present with the woman for his name to be on the certifcate. This was only the case if the parents weren't married.

[erika]

I'd like to thank you all for your ideas, thoughts and contributions regarding Arthur Gissing

I am still concerned about his birth, something not quite right about that cert and there being no other records for an Arthur Gissing birth I have yet to be convinced.
Also no marriage record for his parents, although the family seem to be together through the relevant censuses and subsequent deaths and wills have confirmed thay are the right people.

The only thing I am completely sure of was that Arthur was the father of my hubby's granny and her two sisters, so he did exist His death remains a further mystery.

So I am going to close this chapter on Arthur Gissing for now and maybe at some point a little snippet of information could surface and I can put the family together properly

Thank you all

[Dulverton]

Here is my tuppence worth.
I shall say this only once!

Arthur Gissing BUTTON was recorded on 1851 as living in Woodbridge

Some members of the Gissing farming family moved from the Cotton, Mendlesham, Bacton & Wickham Skeith area of Suffolk to the Glemsford & Framlingham area 1790-1800.

Jonathan Button & Mary Ann Cook
married September 22nd 1818 St Peter, Bruisyard, Suffolk

They had five children all baptised at St Mary, Dennington.

Mary Ann Button buried Dennington December 1845. aged c50.
There is a Mary Ann Cook living in Woodbridge in 1861!

Christening:Mary Ann Cook
24 Jul 1798 CHILLESFORD,SUFFOLK ( a few miles to the east of Woodbridge)
parents:John Cook, Sarah

Betsey Button married Robert Whitmore in the September 1856 qtr.
She had had an illegitimate child, James Gobbet Button in 1850 who died a year later. (by a Mr Gobbet?)
The Button men spread their seed in Dennington see various B/B orders.

IN 1846 Samuel Newson Gissing was a solicitor and agent in Cumberland St, Woodbridge and a "Commissioner for taking acknowledgements of married women"!

This ORIGINAL document is a standard certificate which arises from the sale or mortgage of property which had belonged to a married woman. At this period (ie after 1833 but prior to the Married Women's Property Act of 1882) any property of a married woman passed immediately to her husband. As some sort of safeguard she would be examined by a commissioner appointed for the purpose who would satisfy himself that she was of full age and understood what was going on.

The document is signed by the commissioner, but not by either the husband or wife. It gives the parish in which the property is located and date of the transaction, but no further detail.

Samuel Newson Gissing was a son of Samuel Gissing & Ann Stearn born Woodbridge 1814.

Brundish:
Settlement certificate; John Button, Elizabeth his wife and John their son, Dennington, 28th September 1762. FC89/G5/15 1762
Hope that this helps.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I hope Erika can sort something out from all that additional information.

[erika]

Hi Dulverton and many thanks for "your tuppence worth"

That certainly makes interesting reading and I will definitely try to see if this fits in anywhere

The Button men spread their seed in Dennington see various B/B orders

Not quite sure what this B/B orders means?
Thanks again for your interest

Erika

[dickiesam]

Hi Erika,
Not from personal experience you understand......
But I believe B/B means Bastardy Bonds!
See http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/Pa ... rders.aspx for an explanation.

[erika]

Not from personal experience you understand......

Perish the thought DS, as if.........!!!!

Thanks for the explanation. Could fit in with all the mystery we had regarding the Gissings in this post


Erika

[stevewrightnz]

Hi Erika,

Arthur John Gissing is my GG Grandfather via Alice Mary Gissing. (my parents remember the names involved and can confirm some of the information)

The info I have suggests Arthur was married to a Mary Milward on 2 June 1873 at Hackney London with the following issue

Alice Mary Gissing
chr 8 Jan 1874 Hackney, London
m Lewis Water Wright 11 Sept 1897 (GG father
d 9 Aug 1959

Edith Maria Gissing
b 2 Sept 1875 Walthamstow, Waltham Forest, Greater London
m William Panrucker

Nelly Sarah Gissing
b 16 Jun 1878, Liverpool
M Frederick John Graves 27 May 1896
d 30 Aug 1967 Leytonstone, Waltham Forest, London

Lily Sarah Gissing
chr 28 Nov 1886 St. Mary's, Walthamstow, Essex
m Albert Ford in 1929

Mary Milward's parents are Elisha Milward and Sarah Haynes so at least the middle names of the last two make sense. Mary and Maria make some sort of sense too.

Going back a generation it would appear that Arthur's father was John Gissing born 1823 at Woodbridge, Sussex and married to a Mary Ann Sawyer about 1850 @ Hoxne, Suffolk with the following issue (looks like they got about a bit )

Alice Maria Gissing
b. 09/07/1850 Dennington, Suffolk
chr. 26/01/1859 Saint John The Baptist, Shoreditch, London
Cen 1871 Blomfield St, South East Side, St John at Hackney, London

Arthur John Gissing
b. 1852 Liverpool, Merseyside ????
Cen. 1871 Blomfield St, South East Side, St John at Hackney, London (This says Suffolk as as birthplace)
d. 1880???

Henry William Gissing
chr. 26 Jan 1859
Cen. 1871 Blomfield St, South East Side, St John at Hackney, London
cen thru to 1901
d 1903

John Robert Gissing
b 1862 Dalston, London
All the census to 1911
d. 1950

Louisa M Gissing
b 1865
cen 1891 10 Argyle Rd, Wanstead, Essex, England

Laura Mary Gissing (Louisa's Twin???)
b 1865
cen various
d. 1954 Worthing Sussex

EDIT:- Looks like Laura and Louisa are the same person 1891 Census probably has the wrong name! Laura works for the most part in every other place I can find her

There are some family secrets around Arthur that I have been unable to sort out so far. I'll work on dad and see what I can get out of him but don't hold out much hope at the moment.

Assuming that I have the right folks I have probably got the Gissing lot back to about 1568; I can post what I have or have a look here:

http://www.mundia.com/nz/Tree/Family?ti ... 6038474589

I'm still looking to fill in a few blanks too!!!

Hope all this helps?

Steve Wright

[MaryA]

Hi Steve and welcome to the forum. Thanks for jumping straight in with a lot of information. Erika is a regular member of our forum and will be along shortly, I'm sure she's going to love all this extra stuff.

[erika]

Hi Steve

Great to get your message here.
I am on holiday in France at the moment and have just got an internet connection after a
week
I will be back in UK next weekend and will get in touch. Funnily enough I was looking through all the Gissing info before I left and had recently got some new certs.
Arthur was my husband's gg grandfather, his grandmother being Nellie Gissing.

Can't wait to get home now, not really am having too much of a good time

[MaryA]

You stay and enjoy the holiday Erika, your rellies have been there for a long time and are patiently waiting for your return