Gardner family from Old Swan

[robert53]

Trying to trace my grandparents history, Thomas Gardner and his wife Margaret, Margaret died about 1928/9 and Thomas about 1937/8, the family lived in Fairford Crescent Old Swan, i belive Thomas died in Walton hospital, not much to go on i know, but thats about all i know.
Thank you.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Just two things that you might know and be able to help us with.

How old - even approximately - were they when they died?

What was Margaret's maiden name? and you should be able to get this from your father's birth, do you have his date of birth and place?

[robert53]

Margaret Jane was about 38 and her maiden name was Williams born around the Llandudno area, Thomas was about 47 when he died, both are my mothers parents.
Thank you.

[Bertieone]

Marriage,
march 1912

Williams Margaret J, Thomas Gardner, Conway 11b 566

[MaryA]

Thank you for that information, and to Bert for the marriage details.

As the marriage was in Wales and also after the 1911 census, we might have a little difficult helping with research without further information. You need to get the marriage certificate which will tell you their addresses, ages and occupations at the time of the marriage also their fathers names and occupations and witnesses who may also be related.

With the reference and date details Bert has given you can order this certificate online at www.gro.gov.uk and it will cost £9.25, they usually deliver within 10-14 days.

[dickiesam]

Probable deaths.... The only ones in the frame for Lancashire.

Death: GARDNER, Margaret J
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1930; Jun qtr
Age at death: 39
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 564

Death: GARDNER, Thomas
Registration district: Liverpool North
Year of registration: 1937; Dec qtr
Age at death: 48
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 493

Taking a flyer.....
Based on the age at death, this is the only match in the year before they married....
Reg. District: Conway
Address: Trefriw Cottage, James Street, Llandudno, Carnarvonshire
EVANS, John Jones Head Married 32 1879 Labourer gardener - Llandudno
EVANS, Cecilia Maude Wife [md 7 years] 31 1880 - Norwich, Norfolk
EVANS, Richard Ivor Davies Adopted son 3 1908 - South Wales
WILLIAMS, Margaret J Lodger 21 1890 - Llanconway
WILLIAMS, Catherleen Illegitimate dtr of lodger [3 mths] 1911 - Manchester

Edited to remove rubbish info!

[Blue70]

A few more possibles from the 1911 Census. Could Margaret Jane have worked in a hotel? Was Thomas English?


Name: Margaret Jane Williams
Age in 1911: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Festiniog
Civil Parish: Llandudno cum Eglwys-Rhos
County/Island: Caernarvonshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: Plas Eidal Langham Street Llandudno
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Drapers Assistant
Registration District: Conway
Registration District Number: 632
Sub-registration District: Llandudno
ED, institution, or vessel: 05
Household Schedule Number: 152
Piece: 34540


Name: Margaret Williams
Age in 1911: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation to Head: Sister in Law
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Llandudno, Carnarvon, Wales
Civil Parish: Llandudno cum Eglwys-Rhos
County/Island: Caernarvonshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: Welcome Hotel Llandudno
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Hotel Waitress
Registration District: Conway
Registration District Number: 632
Sub-registration District: Llandudno
ED, institution, or vessel: 05
Household Schedule Number: 167
Piece: 34540


Name: Margaret Williams
Age in 1911: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Roewen, Carnarvon, Wales
Civil Parish: Llandudno cum Eglwys-Rhos
County/Island: Caernarvonshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: Lockyers Private Hotel Llandudno
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Hotel Housemaid Waitress
Registration District: Conway
Registration District Number: 632
Sub-registration District: Llandudno
ED, institution, or vessel: 03
Household Schedule Number: 48
Piece: 34538



Blue

[Blue70]

You really need to get the marriage record to give you a better chance of identifying Thomas and Margaret Jane's family lines. 

Looking at possible births of children there are three possibles in the Conway district. The family may have moved to the Liverpool area after 1916:-

Birth: Jan/Feb/Mar 1913 
Surname: Gardner  
Forename: Thomas  
Mother: Williams  
District: Conway  
Vol: 11b
Page: 791  

Birth: Apr/May/Jun 1914
Surname: Gardner  
Forename: Margaret G  
Mother: Williams  
District: Conway  
Vol: 11b
Page: 824  

Birth: Jul/Aug/Sep 1916
Surname: Gardner  
Forename: Frederick  
Mother: Williams  
District: Conway  
Vol: 11b
Page: 756  


Blue

[robert53]

Thank you to everyone for your help, i have ordered a copy of the marriage certificate so hopefully that will give more information.
Thank you.

[robert53]

Marriage Certificate arrived today and still some mystery surounds Margaret Jane, both lived in Jubilee Street Llandudno, Thomas Gardner's father is also Thomas, but Margaret Jane's father has been left out along with profession!!, still dont know where Thomas jnr was born
Thank You.

[MaryA]

What were their ages? was Thomas also living in Llandudno? who were the witnesses.

[robert53]

Hi Mary, Thomas was 22 Margaret 21, married 2nd March 1912 at Conway Register Office.
The witness were a R Jones and T Parry same names as the Registra and Superintendant Registra. No knowledge of Thomas Snr, just says General Labourer.
Thank You.

[dickiesam]

but Margaret Jane's father has been left out along with profession!!, still dont know where Thomas jnr was born
Thank You.

Might be a simple omission in copying the Registry Office page info into the quarterly returns sent to the GRO. Would be worth giving Conway Registry Office a ring and ask the question. With luck SKP might check it for you. Have all the details, date etc with you.
http://www.conwy.gov.uk/doc.asp?cat=4659&doc=17802

I'd do that before making any assumptions about whether or not she knew who her father was. 99.99% of cases of illegitimate children getting married that I have come across will have a father's name. Often it will be fictitious to save embarrassment.