Help required with uniform please

[MaryA]

We have a photograph but not sure if it is son or father, can anybody help to identify which regiment and date please.

We have father James who would have been born 1844 or son George William born 1882



Tried to zoom in on that badge

[dickiesam]

Is the photograph actually bigger than the section posted? If yes, is there any detail on the sleeves and wider view of the arc of 'buttons' across the left breast pocket?

[Katie]

I would say it is George William born 1882 Whats his surname?

[daggers]

Hmmm. The lanyard on his right shoulder does not look like any army one I have seen, with that arrangement of tassels. His Sam Browne belt does not look as well-polished or fitted as would be the case with a regular officer. The collar and tie would be of the age of the second of your men rather than the first, I think. The badges over both breast pockets are not normal army style.
Is there more of the photo? He may have a cap or other headgear just out of shot.
Daggers

[dickiesam]

Two thoughts...

Is that badge over the right pocket a stylised shamrock and could there be an Irish Army connection?
See: https://www.google.ie/search?q=shamrock ... unofficial

[MaryA]

Very briefly, this very small photograph - and the first was the whole of it, was tucked inside the birth certificate of George William POWELL, so we don't know if it would be a picture of father or son.

The son moved to Liverpool, but the father lived in Birkenhead, his father being born in Shropshire, we haven't found any Irish connections at all, although it did look a little shamrock like to me too.

Sorry Katie, haven't found any military entries on Ancestry for George William.

Thank you all for your thoughts, especially that you think it would be the younger rather than the older George, that helps. If anyone has any more thoughts about what it could be the uniform for, taking Daggers comments on board, please let me know.

[daggers]

Second thoughts with a clearer daytime eye!
I don't think there is a shamrock in the badge over his left pocket, but I do think it is a WW1 Silver War Badge (Google will show several examples and define the terms of issue of the Badge). The inner part of the badge has a crown over the letters 'GRI'. This badge was issued to servicemen of all ranks who were discharged from their service as a result of wounds, sickness brought about by their war service etc.
If correct this means that the photo must be of the younger man, but as yet I have no more thoughts about the badges over his left pocket or the lanyard on his right shoulder..
D

PS The Great War Forum would be an ideal place to pursue this, but I do not know how to take the photo from here to there. Can Katie help?
D

[dickiesam]

Since James Powell, the father, was a railway porter in 1891, a groom ["horsekeeper"] in 1901 and apparently retired in 1910+1, I also doubt it is him. George William was a railway labourer in 1901 and I haven't yet found him after that.

What makes you think the photo is one of these two? And when did George William die?

[Bertieone]

Well done Daggers,
Can see it, now you've mentioned it, I think its the one this chap is wearing.

http://greatwarphotos.com/tag/silver-war-badge/

[Katie]

I have a George W Powell in my wounded list who hailed from the Everton area

30th-Nov-1917

Essex Regiment
Private
George W
37342
Powell
Everton
Wounded

[Katie]

I have posted it on the Great War Forum Daggers. Under the wrong topic (Soldiers) instead of Badges and Unifroms.

[MaryA]

Thank you for all the additional information, yes Daggers and Bert for that link, it does look like the Silver War Badge, I will have to read up more about it as it's the second I have come across recently.

DS assumption was made that it was one of these two men as the photograph was discovered amongst family papers, tucked inside the birth certificate.

Since James Powell, the father, was a railway porter in 1891, a groom ["horsekeeper"] in 1901 and apparently retired in 1910+1, I also doubt it is him.

I didn't know if it was a WWI photograph or earlier which meant it could have been the father at some point.

Thanks Katie for posting it on the Great War Forum, I'll check there to see if there are any more suggestions. We never considered the Essex Regiment thinking that it would be one of the Liverpool/Lancashire Regiments.

By 1911 George William Powell is married to Elizabeth Jane with children Francis Mabel and George Thomas, living 9 Hilton Street, Birkenhead and he died 1939. Birkenhead

[dickiesam]

A query for Daggers....?
Would it have been usual for a soldier to wear the Silver War Badge on a uniform? If he was still in the Army wouldn't he have worn a ribbon over the left pocket?

There are a couple of things which lead me to believe this may be a studio photograph with 'trimmings'....

1) The Sam Browne, its not-officer-class condition, and it isn't being worn particularly well [the buckle isn't central].
2) The fancy tasseled lanyard and the way the tassels are looped across the right pocket and clipped/pinned there. Never seen that before.
3) The Silver War Badge seems to have a long pin which is on the outside of the material, or a thread which is passed through the button hole into the pocket.
4) That set of what could be 5 'badges/buttons' over the left pocket and the presence of another 'badge' above them.
5) Could the uniform not be British but French or even American?

[MaryA]

1) The Sam Browne, its not-officer-class condition, and it isn't being worn particularly well [the buckle isn't central].

Now you are confusing me DS

If it was considered that this picture was of an officer then he wouldn't be the same one Katie found in the wounded list as he was a private.

I can't find another birth for a George William who Katie's entry could be for, and the family could have moved at least for a time, to Liverpool, his son definitely lived in Everton later (1938 directory), even if they returned to Cheshire later.

[dickiesam]

1) The Sam Browne, its not-officer-class condition, and it isn't being worn particularly well [the buckle isn't central].

Now you are confusing me DS

If it was considered that this picture was of an officer then he wouldn't be the same one Katie found in the wounded list as he was a private.

Basically, I don't think this is an officer. I think the 'accoutrements' could be part of a studio's effort to make a 'good' interesting picture to send home.

[MaryA]

Hmmm would a private do something like that?

If that's the case perhaps we couldn't accept that he had the Silver War Badge. Although if Katie's list was correct perhaps he would be entitled to it anyway.

[daggers]

I agree that it would be unusual for a discharged soldier/officer to wear uniform, so the SWB would normally be seen on civilian clothes.

As someone has mentioned Scouts in connection with the badges on the left breast, I have emailed a query to Scouts HQ, asking if a Scout leader of the 1918/20s era would wear that type of uniform, After all, their founder Baden Powell was a distinguished soldier. An automated reply tells me to expect an answer in about three days. I'll pass on anything that comes back.
What a pity the photo does not show the knees!

On the GWF there is a suggestion that the lanyard and tassels might relate to a Croix de Guerre awarded to a unit, but I know nothing about those.

D

[dickiesam]

I am not a military expert.... but I don't think that lanyard has any links to the Croix de Guerre. The 'lanyard' worn because a unit had been awarded the Croix de Guerre was known as a Fourragère and was worn over the left shoulder and sleeve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourrag%C3%A8re

From Wiki...
The Croix can be awarded to military units, as a manifestation of a collective Mention in Despatches. It is then displayed on the unit's flag. A unit, usually a regiment or a battalion, is always mentioned at the army level. The Croix is then a Croix de Guerre with Palm. Other communities, such as cities or companies can be also awarded the Croix.

When a unit is mentioned twice, it is awarded the Fourragère of the Croix de Guerre. This Fourragère is worn by all men in the unit, but it can be worn on a personal basis: those permanently assigned to a unit, at the time of the mentions, were entitled to wear the fourragère for the remainder of service in the military.

[MaryA]

What a pity the photo does not show the knees!

Never thought of the scouts!

Thank you for all the extra stuff DS, I am so grateful for all the knowledge and expertise of our crew on here.

[MaryA]

Resurrecting this post as I have got the photograph back to make a higher resolution scan of the buttons on the other side.

The next photograph is one that we wonder is the same man, if so there could be more clues, the last photograph is a high resolution where I have tried to zoom in on the man himself rather than the background.







This update is also being posted on the Great War Forum as there has been a lot of help and suggestions given on there also. Thanks Katie.
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... pic=199837