Kelly's. Liverpool 1800's

[atlantikman]

Hi All,

It was Leannek who mentioned it: "I forgot to add child : Robert Hnry Kelly born 1838 Liverpool and our connection ..."

It has been a while since I did the specific search on my line; I was interested in Sarah, who was not mentioned in the 1841 Census I mentioned above. I came across this other Robert (Henry) Kelly and realised that a few folk on Mundia were obviously mixing them up. There are about eight trees on Mundia which specifically link this man, including a photo, who obviously went to Australia.

My Robert Kelly mentioned, did not arrive in Liverpool until about 1832 or just after. There where problems in the IOM with a close relation losing the family home (Balladda, near Peel) due to non-payment of the mortgage. Some relations stayed in IOM whilst Robert and Jane moved to Liverpool.

I think it boils down to some researchers assuming things, without actually checking the facts, which sadly appears to happen alot in this hobby.

Paul.

[Leannek]

Hi
Many thanks for all your assistance. I am now very confused! Help. It is confusing with so many Kelly's!
Robert Henry Kelly in 1878 at the age of 38 years old gave the following details on his marriage certificate. Robert Henry Kelly born Liverpool, England
Father as Robert Edward Kelly. Shoemaker. Mother: Jane Kelly maiden name lace. Kirk Patrick marriages 1822 has robert Kelly and Jane lace married 18.1. 1822. Robert from Kirk Patrick and Jane lace from kirk German. Certificates available for both. I also easily found a record of the birth of Robert Henry Kelly on L.D.S. records for Robert and Jane Kelly als Lace.
Robert Henry Kelly was firstly married to Margaret Ann Bridson, 1868. Parish; German. Nov. 14. Ballacurry. Father; Robert Henry Kelly, shoemaker. Margaret Ann Bridson was injured on the journey to Melbourne and is buried in the Melbourne General cemetery. So now I am very confused. Robert Kelly was recorded as being the son of John Kelly and Jane Corrin; Balladda, Isle of Man.
Children of Robert Kelly and Jane Lace listed as John Robert: jan. 6th 1828; Kirk Patrick, Sarah march 13th 1825 and other children from Liverpool parish records. I had a death record for Robert Kelly, Porter. 1843 but thought St Thomas, not in right area. Is this your Robert; Paul. Happy to send you cert.
anyway ? Where to now? Any help would be great.
Leanne. P.s we thought that our Robert initially shoemaker and then labourer??

[Bertieone]

For the crew,


Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
about Robt Hy Kelly

Name:
Robt Hy Kelly
Death Place:
Carlton, Victoria
Age:
65
Father's Name:
Kelly Edwd
Mother's Name:
Jane Lace
Registration Year:
1900
Registration Place:
Victoria
Registration number:
12144
Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1835

[Leannek]

Hi
Many thanks for that information. Very confused! I have been to Isle of Man many times and spent many hours in records and library.Also to Liverpool records office etc. We have cert's for any of the family that we could find. All started with Robert Henry Kelly's parent's listed on his first marriage cert. And subsequent certificates.His death cert. listed father as Edward, we all know how unreliable that info. can be. We don't know what to look at from here
Two questions; Do people put wrong parent's on certificates and do they put both father and mother wrong?or just one ? And place of birth? This was the first time we had asked for help as we do not use family history programmes and rely on certificates/ graves etc. all verifiable information. Now a little lost!
Most grateful for any assistance.
Leanne

[atlantikman]

Hi Leanne,

Thanks but I already have the death certificate of Robert Kelly 1843.

You mention that the father of your Robert Henry Kelly is a shoemaker called Robert EDWARD kelly; then you also say that from Robert Henry Kelly’s first marriage, his father is Robert HENRY Kelly, shoemaker ???

The Death record for Robert Henry Kelly (thanks Bertieone) indicates that he was born about 1835, and his father was an Edward Kelly. It is possible that the informant of the death maybe did not know all the facts, so may have guessed.

In 1878 when I assume he married his second wife in Australia, you say he is 38 so would have been born about 1840.

So based on the info above, this Robert Henry Kelly could have been born between about 1835 and 1840.

What puzzles me is why is your Robert Henry Kelly not on the 1841 Census I mentioned above, if you believe that this is his family there? The child would only have been about 3-8 years old then. I also notice that Sarah is not on this census either – but she is older at about 16 then, so could have been possibly living/working elsewhere. But I do have my doubts as to whether she was a child of Robert Kelley and Jane Lace.

I have a (rather poor) copy of the 1822 parish marriage record of Robert Kelly and Jane Lace, but I see no mention of any occupation for him – does your copy show an occupation?

Paul.

[Leannek]

Hi
Have checked marriage cert. for Robert Kelly and Jane Lace; no occupation for Robert. If you check Isle of Man census for 1841 you will find a Robert Kelly aged three with the Gell/gill family of kirk Patrick. If you have researched family you will be aware that they are relatives of Balladda family. sarah( one name only) is also to be found on Isle of Man census 1841. We have sweated over the differences in names but it is more often recorded on cert's that seem to have information on from only Robert Henry Kelly as Robert?
I have no listing of family at ?canning street so cannot give you information on that one. We do have the sale 1744 + 1830 documents of Balladda if you want a copy.In my haste to post i simply forgot to put the main link to our branch. i will be less excited next time. Would love to work this one out. Have researched possible Edward?and Jane lace marriages and only get Robert and Jane Lace or variations.
Thanks for any assistance. Much appreciated.

[atlantikman]

Hi Leanne,

Yes I am aware of the surname Gell in our tree, mainly from that book by Herbert D Kelly in 1977, but have not done research to that line.

The family at South Side Canning Place Court in the 1841 Census are thus:

Robert Kelly 40 Labourer not born in the county;
Jane Kelley 40 not born in the county;
Edward Kelley 15 Shipwright App not born in the county;
John Kelley 13 not born in the county;
Catherine Kelley 10 born Lancashire;
Ann Kelley 8 born Lancashire;
Margaret Kelley 6 born Lancashire;
Phillip Kelley 4 born Lancashire;
Mary Kelley 10months born Lancashire;
William Warterson 15 Shipwright App not born in the county;
Isabella Corris 20 H. S (House Servant?) not born in the county.

With the rounding down rule on this Census, that would make Robert and Jane born between about 1797-1801. Edward was born about 1826 or earlier – he was born and baptised in late 1822, about nine months after their parents marriage. I have an 1849 Seamans record (480923) showing he was born on 13 October 1822, but that is the date of his baptism. He married Elizabeth Dillicate/Delicate in 1843, and the Dillicate name was passed on right up to my uncle, as also was the Shipwright profession. The Robert Kelley on Edward’s marriage Certificate was then a Labourer.

I have seen the parish records online of a Catherine, Ann and Margaret, showing their father Robert as a Shoemaker, but I cannot link their abode of Leander Street with any of my research.

I believe Edward’s brother John married a Harriet Mercer in 1844, but I have not sighted the marriage certificate.

Paul.

[Leannek]

Hi Paul
Great name Dillicate. I have info from Stephen and book from Herbert/Ronald.
? William Waterson relative as this would fit as Waterson's played an important role in family. Seems spelling bit off in many cases and names at times. Do you have information re Catherine's marriage, Sarah's marriages. Robert Kelly being listed as a labourer was what I had. I have a john Dillicate married to Eliza Jones with children being Hannah1880,Edward 1881, William 1888, John1890,? Richard. With Edward marriage to Harriet Miller. 24.8.1902
Mary 's Liverpool. Children Harriet,Charles,Mabel, Edward 6.1.1912 married to Margaret Lewis children Marjie,Edward,Stephen, Paul. Probably all wrong but not a line we looked at much. Have a great day.
Leanne

[atlantikman]

Hi Leanne,

Don’t know a Stephen; I am aware of two publications:

The Kelly’s of Balladda, Peel and the US by Herbert D kelly in 1977; and
Cashin of Patrick by Maryellen Robinson Heinrich in 1975.

Catherine: I have no marriage info, only an 1851 record:

1851 Census: 17 Shaws Alley, Liverpool: Catharine Kelley dau/single 20 Servant At Home And Of Place B Liverpool (With her mother Jane and no others).
1851 - 20 = 1831.

Sarah: sorry no info either, other than I had already mentioned that she was not on the 1841 Liverpool Census with her family.

The father Robert Kelly was listed as a Labourer on son Edward’s marriage certificate in 1843. I think this is also him:

1841 Gores Liverpool Directory: Baxter Court, 44 Canning Place: Robert Kelly, warehouseman.

Then nothing until his death in 1843 which says he was a Porter.

The John Dillicate who married Eliza Jones – I think you mean John Kelly who married Eliza Jane Jones in 1879. Their son Edward did marry Harriet Agnes Miller in 1902. Harriet’s father was a Henry Muller whose birthplace was Danzig, which is now Gdansk in modern day Poland.

Paul.

[Leannek]

Hi Paul
Thanks for info. I have traced Sarah and Catherine they seem to have married and had long lives. Working on the other children. My Robert inherited money from mothers will( 1824ish) as children born late 1820's, I wonder if they used this to move.You mentioned "your" Robert moved in 1830's. Photo you mentioned of my Robert Henry Kelly from Ballarrat newspaper along with write up about IOM/Liverpool connection. Robert Henry Kelly was a coppersmith for a train company. He brought many shares in a gold mine and it is on these shares he listed as coming from Douglas IOM, as last residence.
Lots wrong with info. In both those publications but only due to limited info. Available at the time. Balladda actually two properties with at least two- three or more families living on each. Lots of Kelly's! I have both books and they are great reading. Ronald was very generous sending Herbert's book many years ago. Leanne.
Many thanks to all who sent information, particularly Mary and Bert. All most appreciated. Leanne

[Leannek]

Hi
Just a follow up, we have traced all children of Robert Kelly and Jane Lace. Wanted to say thank you to those that helped. Much appreciated. Helps with family history to think outside the obvious and to freely accept that we all believe and find different information. May we never become so set in our way that we can only see our information Is correct and not allow room to consider other options etc.
Have a great day and merry christmas
Leanne

[MaryA]

Thank you for the update Leanne, hope you have a great christmas yourself and good luck with your future research.