Surname decipher please

[Peter Jolliffe]

Anyone able to decipher this surname please.



It' not GRIMSHAW ! First prize an ice lolly

Cheers

[dickiesam]

Hello Peter,
A name that comes to me is Quinnlan.

[Peter Jolliffe]

I think it may help if I post the full marriage cert.

[MaryA]

I think it could be Greenham, but can't find anybody at all by that name in Everton in 1851.

What makes you discount Grimshaw, the father's name and where she has made her mark look very much like it.

Looks like it might be down to a birth certificate of a child.

[Hilary]

How do you know it's not Grimshaw?

Both lancs bmd and ancestry list her as Grimshaw at marriage.

Did the couple have children? One of their birth certificates might help but as she din not sign at marriage maybe not.

It does look like Grimshaw but without the dotted I

I wondered about Gunshaw but it did not help

[Fledge]

'Davies' and 'mariner' are both missing dots to their 'i's, too.

I would have said Grimshaw without the dot, but...

[Hilary]

Do you have Elizabeth on later census? Where was she born?

[Peter Jolliffe]

These are my great grandparents.
My grandmother's birth cert (Sarah Davies) states father Jame Henry Davies, basket maker mother Elizabeth Ann GUNDRY.
1851 census has James living in the courts off College Street with his family alongside Elizabeth Ann GUNDRY and her parents.
I have had the GRO birth cert details checked against Liverpool reg office copy and it too states GUNDRY as mother's maiden name.
I cannot find a Davies/Gundry marriage anywhere or the Gundry family after 1851.
I have followed up a sibling, Susanna(h), of my grandmother but her birth may not have been registered although she was christened at St Peters.

The plot thickens !!

[Peter Jolliffe]

Hilary,

born Liverpool.

[Hilary]

Heat got to me searching for the wrong name!!!

Maybe she altered her name for marriage at the church as she was under 21. Different religions maybe?

[MaryA]

Problem being that the father is wrong too. In the census she is 14 with parents Philip 56? a rigger and Elizabeth 34. Philip's birthplace has been dittoed down from the next door neighbour's Devonshire, I suspect that would be wrong. Big age difference between the parents, could be something in that?

[Peter Jolliffe]

Philip Gundry married twice 1st to Mary McQoune 17 July 1826 St Peter 2nd after 1844 when Mary died.

Unable to find a marriage of Philip to Elizabeth Ann ??

[MaryA]

after 1844 when Mary died.

So it would be Mary and not Elizabeth who is Elizabeth Ann's mother?

[Peter Jolliffe]

Elizabeth A. Gundry age 14 1851 census, Elizabeth age 34 so possible mum / daughter.

Philip's 1st wife Mary was a widow when he married her so maybe no children from that one.

[MaryA]

Mother of Elizabeth, I was going by the date you gave as the death of first wife Mary being after Elizabeth's birth.

Unable to find a marriage of Philip to Elizabeth Ann ??

Maybe he didn't, wouldn't be unusual would it.

The William could be just an error on behalf of the registrar on the certificate, Philip's occupation on his marriage was mariner which matches, although you certainly do have a weird surname, seems to be different spellings everywhere

[Katie]

Baptism St Peters

4th January 1826

Elizabeth Ann Grimshaw
Daughter of Charlotte and William Grimshaw
Abode Thomas Street
Occupation: Labourer

Death registration for Philip Gundry

Deaths Sep 1860 (>99%)
Gundry Philip Liverpool 8b 89

Burial Toxteth Park Cemetery

GUNDRY Philip 59 years Rigger 1 court???? 14 August 1860 519 10378 C R 446 352 CEM 9/1/3

Entry taken from www.toxtethpark.co.uk

1861 Census

Charlotte Gundry Widow is a lodger

Census Ref: 2673 folio 15 page 26

Deaths Mar 1871 (>99%)
Gundry Charlotte 56 Liverpool 8b 259

Burial Toxteth Park

5th March 1871
Charlotte Gundry
Aged 56
Widow
Workhouse
Mount Pleasant
Mode of burial: Single
Section 4 Grave 447

Liverpool Workhouse entry 353 SEL 19/28

Date of Admittance: 20th October 1870
Name: Charlotte Gunnery (I think this should be Gundry)
Age: 56
Address: 72 Peach Street
Religious Creed Prot
Discharged: 3rd March 1871-Died

Liverpool Workhouse Register 353 SEL 18/1

Charlotte Gunnery
Aged 56
Settlement: Liverpool
Widow of Philip a Labourer
Where slept last night: 72 Peach Street
Whether received Parish relief before: No

My take on this is: Elizabeth Ann Gundry was actually born Elizabeth Ann Grimshaw daughter of William and Charlotte Grimshaw. William died and Charlotte Grimshaw either married or lived with Philip Gundry and brought Elizabeth Ann as a Gundry. I think a mistake has been made on the 1851 Census and Elizabeth Gundry aged 34 and Charlotte Gundry are one and the same. All the documentry evidence points to this. Could be wrong. If someone wants to clarify what I have posted please feel free.

[Peter Jolliffe]

Thanks Katie,
we have spoken of this before but as always you find something more again.

However I see 3 William Grimshaws dying 1838, 1888 and 1890 in Liverpool

The last 2 are too late my grandmother born 1873 and 1838 death is questionable as Elizabeth does not state father as deceased on her marriage cert, he must have been alive in 1856.
Thanks again
Peter

[Katie]

Sometimes fathers where not recorded as deceased Peter. The 1841 Census will be the one to solve this Brickwall but I have been unable to locate them on this.

[MaryA]

as Elizabeth does not state father as deceased on her marriage cert, he must have been alive in 1856.

I disagree with that statement. Her father may have been alive in 1856 it often depends on whether the specific question was asked of her. "What is/was your father's occupation" without following up with "Is your father alive or dead".

I'm not saying this as a one off thought, it is something that has cropped up and been proven probably many times in the past.

[Hilary]

I have a number of instances were the bride or bridegrooms' fathers are not stated to be dead but in actual fact they are.

My feeling is that it depends on what was actually asked at the marriage.


my latest find is having sorted out who my grandmother was and the fact her father was dead when she married he is not recorded as dead on the marriage certificate but her husband's father is said to be deceased.