Ellison/Roberts - A family mystery ?

[MaryA]

We look forward to it Vic, meantime you speak as if you could possibly get to the Record Office, but your problem would be finding you way around the records? if this is the case, please try to get there on a Tuesday afternoon when Kathy, Joyce and others host the Help Desk, they will help you find what you need. In fact at our Group Meeting last Tuesday, there was talk about Kathy also getting there early one Tuesday - about 11.00 am? - if there were enough of our members who wanted to get together and she would show them the layout of the archives and microfilms etc. Ask her if she had enough requests to make it worthwhile and see if you could go along then and stay for the Help Desk.

[Katie]

I have a 11 members. I have cleared it with PW Manager so It's 9th July 2013 at 11.00am Central Library, 3rd Floor, William brown Street.

[MaryA]

Post on the News Board Katie, there may be others interested, glad they have approved it for you.

[VicMar1]

Yes Mary, I can get there at any time,being a 'local',I have only experienced the 3rd floor museum setup up till now and I was not aware that the Tuesday meetings had begun again ?
I had read a previous post that had indicated there would be an announcement on the notice board when they resumed, great news and will see y'all soon ?
And Thank You Katie,for organising the extra assistance on July 9th.
I know how busy you are yourself with the massive project you personally have taken on and feel certain that your efforts will be well appreciated by all.
Myself,I am taking a journey into Manchester Records Office before that date and hopefully,will have even more pieces of the puzzle in place beforehand.
It seems I am currently 'on a roll' ?

[Hilary]

I can't see a birth registration for a Valentine Mary Roberts but there are 2 Mary V Roberts born in 1915 one registered Toxteth Park and one registered West Derby.

A birth registration at that time would have the mother's maiden name on it so what was the mother's maiden name?

[Bertieone]

I can't see a birth registration for a Valentine Mary Roberts but there are 2 Mary V Roberts born in 1915 one registered Toxteth Park and one registered West Derby.

A birth registration at that time would have the mother's maiden name on it so what was the mother's maiden name?

Hi Hilary,

Birth cert here,
http://s264.photobucket.com/user/br1tv1 ... sort=6&o=0

[dickiesam]

I can't see a birth registration for a Valentine Mary Roberts but there are 2 Mary V Roberts born in 1915 one registered Toxteth Park and one registered West Derby.

A birth registration at that time would have the mother's maiden name on it so what was the mother's maiden name?

This is the registration Hilary....

Name: ROBERTS, Valentine
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1912; Mar qtr
Mother's maiden name: Ellison
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 1016

[Hilary]

OK so were does the Mary come into it?

I've been away so not up to date with everything

[dickiesam]

OK so were does the Mary come into it?

I've been away so not up to date with everything

It would appear to be a name added at her baptism? My g.father was registered as James, but ended up as James Thomas Francis!

[VicMar1]

You're still ahead of me DS
Yes,I came across another document of a very personal nature (concerning an adoption) and that was the name given,can only be as a consequence of her baptism although none of my family can remember her ever having used it.
As you see on her B.C it was not given to the registrar then and we never knew it to report it at her death.
I think it might be significant in order to discover my earlier search of where the children were raised after the death of 'Martha' Ann Riley (maiden name), who is her Mother, Ann Roberts, (formerly Ellison)of the 1911 census/birth cert. whereupon her Father,Horatio C Roberts, ('David' of the 1911 census ??) had the surviving children "brought up by Nuns" before he went off and remarried in 1921 [And you think you are confused ?]
Believe me when I tell you I am definitely on the right track and what a tangled web it is.
Ellen Letitia AND Annie Francis are accounted for positively but still awaiting definitive proof for young George.
The damnest thing is I am still no nearer finding William Ellison the soldier yet,but I will !

[dickiesam]

OK so were does the Mary come into it?

I've been away so not up to date with everything

It would appear to be a name added at her baptism? My g.father was registered as James, but ended up as James Thomas Francis!

A thought! If Valentine is one of the children raised by RC nuns, she may have been baptised into the RC faith by the nuns and given a saint's name... Mary.

[VicMar1]

Yup, that was my reasoning also when I saw the name Mary added for the first time
Still need to get to the LRO to search for a baptism but is it a W.Derby (everton) church or elsewhere ? Thats where I need the guidance of someones experience.

[dickiesam]

Yup, that was my reasoning also when I saw the name Mary added for the first time
Still need to get to the LRO to search for a baptism but is it a W.Derby (everton) church or elsewhere ? That's where I need the guidance of someone's experience.

Re:

All I can remember is that Mother used to say that she was raised as a catholic by Nuns 'over the water' ?

In my opinion that latter quote cannot be a fiction or family story.... so if Valentine was given the name Mary by 'the nuns' it may have taken place 'over the water' on the Wirral which complicates the search for a baptism.

[VicMar1]

Yes doesn't it? I spent today at the LRO searching through the obvious i.e St Patricks' as thats where the two other siblings were found, (mainly to discount it).
I spoke with Katie and MaryA while I was there and was given a few ideas that I will follow up as soon as I can get back to it. I am going to concentrate on the Everton area parishes and see what happens.
Still baffled by the connotations of the marriage in 1892 at a C of E church and cant decide whether they were both R/C, or, as you suggested at the beginning DS, "kicking with opposing feet" ?

A special thanks to all society members that were in attendance today for the generous help you give to people,some of whom who show up thinking they are going to walk away with a family history package, you are truly dedicated, and VERY patient. Thanks again.

[VicMar1]

Still searching further afield just now and awaiting permission to search closed files,but here is another piece of the puzzle DS.
Raises a few more eyebrows for me anyhow, (I'm beginning to feel a little like Roger Moore )

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... e8e454.jpg

'Sister' indeed ?

[dickiesam]

Still searching further afield just now and awaiting permission to search closed files,but here is another piece of the puzzle DS.
Raises a few more eyebrows for me anyhow, (I'm beginning to feel a little like Roger Moore )

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... 20-pt1.jpg

'Sister' indeed ?

H'mmmm! Talk about stirring the pot!
Looks like he couldn't legally name her as his next if kin as his wife because he wasn't married to her. He couldn't refer to her as Mrs Annie Roberts. Hence, she may be the mother of his children, but "she's my sister!"

[MaryA]

Thinking the same myself, how conniving of him, but then probably just what you would expect ?

[dickiesam]

Thinking the same myself, how conniving of him, but then probably just what you would expect ?

Wondering if there is a 'deep dark' reason for using the name David in the 1911 Census, if he is indeed the same man? Was he on the 'lam', had he done a runner? His 'wife' Annie may have put the cat among the pigeons when she registered the birth of Valentine and, perhaps accidentally, put 'Horatio' down as the father's forename.

Or, maybe muddying the waters, was Annie his common-law sister-in-law and David Roberts his brother?

[MaryA]

Oh what a tangled web we weave and I'm amazed how your mind can follow all those ifs and buts.

[dickiesam]

Oh what a tangled web we weave and I'm amazed how your mind can follow all those ifs and buts.

Like many of us I am blessed [or cursed] with a surfeit of infinite curiosity! And enjoy seeing through the smoke and beyond the mirrors!