The d.o.d of John McCartin b.1884 ... a mystery!

[ZED]

I'm posting this mystery on behalf of a family member (John McCartin's grandson) ~

The assumption was that John McCartin was born in Ireland c1884 ... however, the 1911 census gives Bootle as his birthplace.

John married Martha Hannah Johnson 10/04/1905 in West Derby.

Their children were Peter McCartin (1906-1985), Mary McCartin (1907-1986), Annie McCartin (1909-1910), and Josephine McCartin (1911-2004)

Widow Martha Hannah McCartin re-married in 1918 (her 2nd husband was Thomas Foster McDonald). But what had happened to John?

There is a McCartin buried in Ford cemetery (18/05/1916) but curiously the GRO Index has no record of a McCartin death from this year.

But on the basis that John may have died sometime around 1916 the WW1 ‘deaths in action’ records were checked ... not only was there no sign of a John McCartin amongst the deceased, but there was no record of him being enlisted (or even conscripted) to the armed services!

John’s daughter, Mary, is known to have made several trips to Northern Ireland (which is what gave rise to the assumption that her father may have been born there) but a FHS in Ireland could find no record of John’s death.

Surely there must be a death cert for him somewhere ..? Any suggestions/advice would be gratefully received!

[dickiesam]

Hi ZED,
My bones tell me you have to get the birth cert of John McCartin and get the birth date to check for his death. I found 3 possibles in Lancashire between 1880 and 1890...

Birth: MCCARTEN, John
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1880; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 443

Birth: MCCARTEN, John
Registration district: Toxteth Park
Year of registration: 1882; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 231

Birth: MCCARTAN, John
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1883; Sep qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 99

I'd suggest a search either side of the 1883 birth. If you specify his father's name from his marriage cert and the GRO can't make a match they will refund the fee in full. That would leave the 1880 one.

Incidentally, you probably couldn't see the dedacted Column 16 in the 1910+1 census? It says for John... "Lunatic since Jan 1911...... two months", and the household form was completed and signed by his wife Martha. John's age could have been a best guess in the circumstances.

If John was a long term inmate.....

But on the basis that John may have died sometime around 1916 the WW1 ‘deaths in action’ records were checked ... not only was there no sign of a John McCartin amongst the deceased, but there was no record of him being enlisted (or even conscripted) to the armed services!

it would explain his absence from the armed forces, and his wife may have lied about being widowed when she married for the second time.

[Blue70]

RC Baptism for the 1883 one:-

St. Vincent De Paul
John McCartin
17 Jul 1883
25 Jul 1883
James McCartin
Ellen Rowlands


Blue

[ZED]

Incidentally, you probably couldn't see the dedacted Column 16 in the 1910+1 census? It says for John... "Lunatic since Jan 1911...... two months", and the household form was completed and signed by his wife Martha. John's age could have been a best guess in the circumstances.

If John was a long term inmate.....
it would explain his absence from the armed forces, and his wife may have lied about being widowed when she married for the second time.

Aha dickiesam ... thank you so much: the lunacy diagnosis is surely the key to this mystery! (Needless to say, the family weren't aware of this). So John could well have been admitted to an asylum elsewhere (not in Liverpool) and died there ...
This does seem a likely scenario, as funnily enough I encountered an almost identical 'mystery' in my own Tree ... I'd searched without success for my gr-gr-grandfather John McQuinn's death/burial in Liverpool, but unbeknown to me he'd been admitted to the lunatic asylum at Whittingham (Preston). He was a patient/inmate there from 1895 until his death in 1929 (and he was buried within the asylum grounds).

Many thanks for the possible Liverpool births too ... I'll pass that info on.

[ZED]

RC Baptism for the 1883 one:-

St. Vincent De Paul
John McCartin
17 Jul 1883
25 Jul 1883
James McCartin
Ellen Rowlands


Blue

Many thanks for this info Blue ... 'our' John McCartin's father was also John: so although this isn't his baptism it does mean that we can rule out the 1883 birth from dickiesam's list.

[dickiesam]

It took me a couple of years to find out where one of my g.g.father's died in 1878. He and the family lived in Back Commutation Row, between Islington and London Road. His death was registered in Prescot because he died in the County Lunatic Asylum at Rainhill.

[ZED]

It took me a couple of years to find out where one of my g.g.father's died in 1878. He and the family lived in Back Commutation Row, between Islington and London Road. Hi death was registered in Prescot because he died in the County Lunatic Asylum at Rainhill.

That's interesting dickiesam ... so we'll widen our death search to include Prescot and Preston, as Rainhill & Whittingham will be the most likely asylums for a Liverpool chap.

Meanwhile the family member who initiated this enquiry is getting in touch with the person who does 'look-ups' for Ford Cemetery to ascertain who the McCartin is that was buried there in 1916.

[Blue70]

The burials for 1916 and 1918 say flowers so it may refer to an earlier death and burial.


Blue

[ZED]

The burials for 1916 and 1918 say flowers so it may refer to an earlier death and burial.


Blue

Is there a 1918 McCartin burial at Ford Cemetery, Blue?

The graves at Ford that are known to 'belong' to the family are those of the infant Annie McCartin d.1910 (grave 31ALD) and Martha Hannah d.1930 and her 2nd husband (Thomas Foster McDonald) d.1940 (grave RD548)

[Hilary]

There's a set of microfiche for Ford Cemetery held at Sefton Local history at Crosby Library. You can search that by surname and it gives address and grave numbers etc.

[ZED]

There's a set of microfiche for Ford Cemetery held at Sefton Local history at Crosby Library. You can search that by surname and it gives address and grave numbers etc.

Many thanks for that info Hilary ... that's great: I can get to Crosby Library very easily.

[Blue70]

Hi ZED

Here are the images dated 1916 and 1918:-






Blue