Descendants of Thomas Ernest and George F Jones

[EdBarryJones]

I am seeking descendants of Thomas Ernest Jones, born Jan 20, 1875 in Liverpool to parents Edward and Elizabeth Jones. Edward was the Crosby lighthouse near Southport from 1877 to 1894. Before that, he was the keeper of the Bootle North Wall lighthouse. He is buried in St Martins and All Saints, Alcar. Also seeking Thomas's brother, George F born in Bootle, 1878. The 1891 census has the family living in Little Crosby. I have lots of genealogy information including DNA evidence showing the migratory path from Africa, 50,000 years ago. Please post a response if you have any information on the brothers or email me, edbarryjones [at] gmail.com.
Many thanks

email address amended to prevent spamming, change the [at] to @ to use. MA

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. We have tried to put together a few suggestions for searching for a living relative http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =14&t=8154 however if there is any part of your research that we can help with please let us know.

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Not doubting that date of birth for Thomas Ernest Jones [Jan 20, 1875] but I can only find one registration with that name between 1874 and 1876 in Lancashire.
Births Dec qtr 1874: Jones, Thomas Ernest - W. Derby - 8b - 306.
Where did that precise DoB come from? Or was Ernest added at baptism?

Trying to establish a time line... You say he is buried in St Martins and All Saints, Alcar, so when/where did Thomas die? And... who did he marry?

And for the benefit of the crew here... The census you mentioned:
1891: RG12 - Piece: 2983 - Folio: 136 - Page: 24
Address: High Town Lighthouse, High Town, Little Crosby, Lancashire
JONES, Edward - Head Married 59 1832 Lighthouse keeper - Holywell, North Wales
JONES, Elizabeth - Wife 54 1837 - Trefdraeth, Anglesey
JONES, Thomas E - Son 16 1875 - Engineer's apprentice - Liverpool, Lancashire
JONES, George F - Son - 13 1878 - Scholar - Bootle, Lancashire
EVANS, Owen P - Visitor - 15 1876 - Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire

[EdBarryJones]

Thank you for your helpful interest and prompt reply.
- The date of birth information for Thomas came from the LDS FamilySearch.org web site but I made an error. It's actually a christening date so your Dec Q 1874 birth date could fit. The Ernest christian name is from this LDS record. The census record lists him as Thomas E.
- The christening date for George F is 05 Mar 1878 in Liverpool. This record shows the F as Fosberry ???? I have never heard that name before.
- I have no other information on Thomas or on George
- Their father, Edward, the lighthouse keeper I believe is buried In St Martins church, Alcar. He died Dec 5th 1899.

Thank you again
Barry Jones

[Hilary]

The church at Altcar is St Michael and the Angels not St Martin. It's possible there is a gravestone.

If you google Crosby Lighthouse you will find a picture of the old lighthouse. It stood at the end of the River Alt.

[Hilary]

The actual image for the Thomas Ernest Jones states

birth 28 Nov 1874
Baptism 20 Jan 1875
Thomas Ernest Jones
son of Edward and Elizabeth
Abode Toxteth
Father's occupation mariner

I've just discovered that Bootle lighthouse was only built in 1877 so was Edward a mariner previously?

Do you have the family on any earlier or later census that the 1891?

[Hilary]

I have found this information via a link on www.alk.org.uk/faq/faq.htm

Liverpool's Lighthouse Keepers
(Mersey Docks and Harbour Board)
Jones, Edward
Lightship seaman
1860 - 1877

Keeper
North Wall
1877 - 1887

Keeper
Crosby
1887 - 1896 (Superann. 1896)

So Edward will be on a lightship in earlier census and probably listed as mariner at baptisms etc.

[dickiesam]

Hello Barry,
To move forward in tracing his descendants, if any, I normally suggest you get his birth certificate with his actual date of birth. Births Dec qtr 1874: Jones, Thomas Ernest - W. Derby - 8b - 306.

However, before you buy that birth cert you should consider this....
Death: JONES, Thomas Ernest
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1893; Dec qtr
Age at death: 18
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 413

With there being only one birth registration with that name between 1872 and 1876 in Lancashire, and the age at death fits with the 1891 census, there's a high probability that this is Edward's son. The death certificate would give you the home address. If you haven't done that before, you can purchase BMD certs online from the GRO using the references given [Distict/year/qtr/Volume/Page]. Cost £9.25. http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp

[dickiesam]

There are two George F Jones birth registrations that fit with the 1878 baptism:
Birth: JONES, George Fosbery
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1878; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 490

Birth: JONES, George Frederick
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1878; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 578

Assuming the baptism record is accurate the first birth is the one to consider. Fosberry is not a common name and is almost certainly a family name, perhaps his mother's maiden name. In the 1861 census there is only one Fosberry family in Lancashire. The head of household is George, a retired merchant, living at 4 Sefton Terrace, Town Row, West Derby. RG10 piece 3848 folio 151 page 40.

George apparently drops out of sight for the 1901 census and the one following, so I am thinking he followed his father's footsteps at became a mariner. Or joined the military.

[Bertieone]

1911,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWTQ-3SC

[Bertieone]

Name:
George Fosbery Jones
Birth Date:
11 Jan
Baptism Date:
5 Mar 1878
Parish:
Liverpool St Peter
Father's Name:
Edward Jones
Mother's Name:
Elizabeth Jones

Father, Lighthouse Keeper

[Bertieone]

Name:

George Fosbery Jones
Age in 1911:
33
Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1878
Male
Birth Place:
Bootle, Lancashire, England
Civil parish:
Waterloo
County/Island:
LancashireCountry:
England
Street Address:
2 Molyneux Road, Waterloo Nr Liverpool
Marital Status:
Married
Occupation:
Civil Engineers Clerk
Registration district:
West Derby
Registration District Number:
455
Sub-registration district:
Crosby
ED, institution, or vessel:14
Piece:
22313
Household Members:
Name
Age
George Fosbery Jones33
Elisie Eveline Jones26
Isabel Kathleen Jones
3/12
Lilly Winterbourne

[dickiesam]

1911,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWTQ-3SC

Well found Bert! Never thought to search on Bootle as place of birth.

Barry,
George and his wife Elsie Eveline are at 2 Molyneux Road, Waterloo in April 1911. Have a 3 month old daughter Isabel Kathleen and he's a civil engineer's clerk.

Marriage: JONES, George Fosbery and PRYDE, Elsie Eveline E
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1909; Dec qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 723

Birth: JONES, Isabel K
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1911; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 230

Possible births:
JONES, Andrew N
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1914; Dec qtr
Mother's maiden name: Pryde
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 432

And a bit late....?
Birth: JONES, Reginald J
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1922; Mar qtr
Mother's maiden name: Pryde
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 486

I suggest you order both the latter two birth certs but ensure you specify the parents' names when you order. That is essential, so if the parents are not right you won't be landed with a wrong cert. The GRO will refund the full fee of £9.25 if the details don't match those you specified. The certs will give you the date of birth. That is important because death registrations from the 1970s had to have a date of birth of the deceased not just an age. And you need to know what those initials N and J stand for in their names.

[EdBarryJones]

Wow! You all have been exceptionally helpful.
Your information about Edward is correct. He was a mariner serving on several Mersey Bar lightships before becoming the lighthouse keeper of the Bootle North Wall Lighthouse in 1877. The Mersey Docks and Harbour Board sent me his complete employment record. He originally lived with his wife Elizabeth in Trefdraeth, Anglesey. He left to serve on the lightship 'Alert' in 1860.
I'm still not sure of his son George's middle name, Fosbery but I note that 'dickiesam" has a second birth registration for George Frederick Jones. That name does run in the family. I will order both birth certificates. I will also order the death certificate for Thomas Earnest Jones.
Thank you again for your helpfulness and diligence. I'm impressed.
Barry Jones

[Hilary]

Presumably there are more children than the 2 mentioned. Do you have their names as well or know what happened to them. I saw Edward in the 1861 census with a son Edward a baby. What happened to him?

[dickiesam]

I'm still not sure of his son George's middle name, Fosbery but I note that 'dickiesam" has a second birth registration for George Frederick Jones. That name does run in the family. I will order both birth certificates.

From Familysearch...
Baptism
Name: George ...Bery Jones
Christening Date: 05 Mar 1878
Christening Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: Edward Jones
Mother's Name: Elizabeth

It is very likely you will find a copy of the parish entry for this baptism in the Ancestry Liverpool Collection. It will confirm his parents and full name and will save you risking £9.25 on the cert.

[Bertieone]

Name:
George Fosbery Jones
Birth Date:
11 Jan
Baptism Date:
5 Mar 1878
Parish:
Liverpool St Peter
Father's Name:
Edward Jones
Mother's Name:
Elizabeth Jones

Father, Lighthouse Keeper

The abode is North Wall Lighthouse

[dickiesam]

Barry,
Just a quick note in case you haven't used the GRO site before. I suggested you enter the parents' names in the birth cert applications. This was called Reference Checking and was discontinued as such in 2008, but there's still a way to do it.

When you go to the GRO site http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the Birth Cert box there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter the year of the birth you are interested in. Even if you do know the Index Reference [Qtr, Volume and Page numbers, etc], don't enter anything else here.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents including the mother's maiden name. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the full fee.

[dickiesam]

Name:
George Fosbery Jones
Birth Date:
11 Jan
Baptism Date:
5 Mar 1878
Parish:
Liverpool St Peter
Father's Name:
Edward Jones
Mother's Name:
Elizabeth Jones
Father, Lighthouse Keeper

The abode is North Wall Lighthouse

Well done Bert! Saved Barry filling in at least one set of forms!

[EdBarryJones]

Presumably there are more children than the 2 mentioned. Do you have their names as well or know what happened to them. I saw Edward in the 1861 census with a son Edward a baby. What happened to him?

This Edward, the son of Edward the lighthouse keeper and the brother of George Fosbery and Thomas Ernest, was my grandfather. I have a good amount of information on him.
Thank you again for your help.
Barry