White House Hotel Liverpool

[JeanB]

Hi,

I have been told by family that my great grandfather was landlord of the White House Hotel in Liverpool. I am presuming this is the one still there on Duke street. I haven't been able to find evidence of his having been there though and wondered if anyone could help. Most likely dates for him to have been there are between 1860 and 1875. His name was Edwin Tonge ( sometimes spelt Tong/Tongue). Other possible names could be Johnson as his wife was Selina Johnson and her father was Jacob and he was a publican in Cheshire. My great grandfather was a farmer so I do wonder if the story has got muddled and it was Jacob or another Johnson who was at the pub. I had hoped to get to Liverpool library some time to look at trade directories and victualler's licenses etc but not able to do so for a while.

Thank you for any help.
Jean

[Hilary]

When and where was Edwin born?

Are we looking for the one who married Selina Johnson in 1877 at St Elphin's church Warrington? If yes what is given as his occupation and abode at marriage?

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Have you tracked him through the censuses to know where he was each ten years and perhaps you could give us some details of these.

Just in case your plans change, please see the post by Katie about the temporary closure of the Record Office http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... 23&t=12614

[dickiesam]

Hello Jean B,
Are you the same poster as on this forum?
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums ... -Liverpool
Just asking in case we are duplicating efforts here.

[JeanB]

Hi Hilary - Thank you for your time.Yes he is the one who married Selina Johnson at St Elphin. He was born 22.9.1845, Rixton, Lancs. His marriage cert. says farmer living in Rixton. Also on his death certificate in 1915 he was a farmer and I know he was from a long line of farmers so his being a publican is a bit of a puzzle.

Hi Mary A, thank you for your welcome and your help. Only just discovered this forum and thought it was the best place to put this query. Thank you about Liverpool Records closure. Yes I spoke to a lady there the other day who suggested I wait until May/June when it should be reopening. Edwin was a farmer on all censuses apart from 1871 as he was in America. According to family he was sharing his farming technique ideas with American farmers.

Hi Dickiesam - Thank you. Yes I am the same person as on BG Forum. Hope that is O.K. Didn't know they were linked.Is it better not to put the same query on both these forums. I thought there may be people who only look on this one.

Regards

Jean

[MaryA]

Checked the 1869 Slaters Directory without success.

The locations for your Edwin Tonge seem to be quite distant from Liverpool, I wonder if it might be easier for you to trace other ancestors who may have lived in Liverpool and discount them from being the publican.

[retiringtype]

There was a White House Hotel in Chester - maybe that was the one http://www.chesterwalls.info/whitehouse.html

[JeanB]

Thanks Mary A for checking in your Directory. I don't have any other ancestors in Liverpool as far as I'm aware. Family are adamant that it was Edwin who was there and that it was Liverpool. The only connection I can make for Edwin with Liverpool is that he sailed to America from there in 1871. Family say it was on his return he then worked at this Hotel/Pub. So it may have been early to mid 1870s.

Thanks retiringtype, that may be worth looking into.

[retiringtype]

No clues in 1873 Gore's either.

[retiringtype]

Jacob Johnson's name crops up in Liverpool licensing session reports in 1880. He had a spirit vaults at 202 Grove Street and was unsuccessful in applying for an outdoor license to sell beer off the premises. By the time of the 1881 census the business had been taken over by a John Sumner.

[retiringtype]

There's also a report of Jacob Johnson, a publican at Rixton, being fined for making men drunk in 1877 (Manchester Evening News, 12th July 1877)

[JeanB]

Thank you very very much retiringtype for all your time. You have been very busy. I really appreciate your help.

That's very interesting and exciting about Jacob Johnson being found in the Liverpool area. He is the father in law and is now looking the most likely one to have been at the White House Hotel. I don't really know what a Spirit Vaults is but will be researching this now. Sounds like a pub of some sort. I know that in 1874 he was at the Bowling Green Inn Hollins Green/Rixton but Grove Street sounds like Liverpool Centre. Where did you find this info?

I was aware of the incident of his allowing drunkenness in his premises in Rixton but not seen it in the Manchester Evening News. I think I saw it reported in a local history book about Pubs in Rixton. Where did you see this article? I have access to Newspapers on Lancashire Library Website. Will have a look for this one.

Thank you once again

[retiringtype]

You'll find the 1880 reports in the Liverpool Mercury in the Gale database on Lancs Libraries online bookshelf.

You might need to look in the BNA to find the one from the MEN in 1877.

202 Grove Street was located at the southern end of Grove St on the corner with Upper Parliament Street.

[JeanB]

Thank you . I have just been engrossed reading the Liverpool Mercury reports which include Jacob Johnson. I think this must be my ancestor. Very interesting. Maybe his son in law Edwin helped him out or he may have gone into the trade himself at the White House.

[retiringtype]

I was wondering we'd got the right Jacob Johnson - was he a publican on the marriage certificate? The only Jacob Johnson I can find in Warburton with a daughter Selina was a tailor, with no Liverpool-born children

[JeanB]

Yes my Jacob Johnson was a tailor and publican. Yes he is a publican on marriage certificate of his daughter Selina to Edwin but on all censuses he was a tailor. Selina's sister on a census was working in a pub in Manchester. I believe it was quite common for publicans to have other jobs on the go. Jacob's father was a tailor too but was also known to deal in straw! I suppose I can't yet presume this is my Jacob Johnson as Liverpool is a distance away from Warburton where he mostly lived but I think it is looking likely from the dates, the fact he was known to be a publican and also the family story of the Liverpool connection.

Thank you for all your help.

[retiringtype]

In that case it is looking very likely that we have the right Jacob Johnson.

The White House in Liverpool was at 60 Berry Street. It seems to have become a wine and spirit vaults in the late 1870's - proprietor W. Townson - and by 1894 (per Kelly's) it had been named the White House. In the 1881 census it's a public house described as having "no name".

[JeanB]

I have seen pictures of the White House - it is on the corner of Berry St and Duke St. and is very run down but quite famous as it has a large graffiti rat drawn on it reputedly done by Banksy the "infamous" graffiti artist! Thank you once again for all the extra dates and info. Looks like you have solved my mystery!