Katie's Mega Brick wall/Charles Henry Lorne

[Katie]

Been doing the Family tree now for 16 years. I had no major problems on my mums side. My stumbling block has been on my Dads side.

When I asked my Dad about his side of the family he mentioned Kitty Flaherty (and she was a Jewess)
the Fagans/the Lornes and the Healey's are also related he also mentioned Dears/Coogans all the names apart from the Healey connection I have tied in.

Now Mary Lorne married Isaac Donaldson in St. Joseph R/C 1923. Now her father was Charles Henry Lorne born circa 1874 Labourer, and according to the census records he was born in Liverpool. They lived in the Comus Street/Birkett Street area of Liverpool. Now my nan Mary Lorne was born 28th May 1899 and baptised at St. Joseph's in June 1899. They also had a son Charles born 1901. It took me about 5 years to find a marriage for Charles Henry Lorne and Mary Fagan, but with the help of freebmd and not putting years in, I finally found that Charles Henry Lorne married Mary Fagan at St. Ambrose in Everton in 1902.

When I found this marriage and I spoke to my Dads cousins they were adamant that I had the wrong marriage, because "there was no way our nan would get married in a Church of England Church and that she was a devote Catholic and went to Mass every night" I tried to speak to my Dad and his brother Frank but they did not want to have what memories they had picked over by me by opening a can of worms.

Now according to the marriage at St. Ambrose Charles father was called Charles Lorne listed as a Labourer.

I Have Charles and Mary in 1911 living at 33 Amelia Street and in 1901 they are living in Comus Street as Married (But we know they were not)

Now I have been trying to solve this problem of Charles Henry Lorne for the last 15 years. All ages he has recorded on Census/His death puts his birth date as C1874. (Apart from when he enlisted in WW1 and he recorded his age as being 34 and 34 days (And he deserted with all the kit and was court martialled) How he got away with all that on his back, I don't know I have trouble carrying 5llbs of Spuds back from Tesco. Now the last two weeks I have been hitting this Brick Wall again. I came across a baptism for a William Henry Laugharne converting to a Catholic and his Godparents were a Timothy Healey and a James Healey and this got me going again and it leads me back to a family who were residing in the Everton District in 1891 RG/12 2945 F133 The Charles Lorne is a Lamplighter and there is no Emily in the house. But each time I hit this I keep coming back to the same family?

I have a marriage for a Emily Lorne getting married to a Francis W Healey in 1901 and he was the brother to Timothy Healey who was godparent to William Henry Laugharne. There is a birth Reg for a Charles Henry Laugharne Registered 1874.

My dad is not so bothered now about the skeletons and he informed the other day that he has a half brother somewhere in Huyton and he keep mentioning Billy Healey and he was a relative of me Ma.

Can someone take a fresh look at this, before I apply for the Charles Henry Laugharne birth. I have tried to locate Francis and Emily Healey on 1911 Census but the are hiding from me. You would think with a surname like Lorne it would be a doddle.

Footnote: When I started the family tree and I mentioned to my Dad that I had found a Catherine Donaldson in the Liverpool Workhouse his reply to was "Oh! you wont find any of ours in the workhouse, we had a shop" If only he knew

[Blue70]

It was common practice in the old days for Catholics to marry in the C of E. It was probably forgotten about by later generations because the RC church put pressure on to discourage it and the practice became less common.

It can be difficult to convince relatives that you know something about the family that they don't know. Religion was always a dodgy subject in Liverpool anything to do with the other faith was discouraged.

I'm from a C of E background and my Dad never knew his Dad was a Catholic. His mother never mentioned it because it was a mixed marriage. My Mum has English and Irish Catholic ancestry that no one in her family knew about.


Blue

[Bertieone]

Hi Katie,

Is this Charles Henry Laugharne's first census?

1881,
5 Portland St,

Joshua Campbell, head, 72
Mary Campbell, 51
Catherine E Laughern 45, daug
Catherine : : 14
Frances : : 11
Charles : : 7
RG 11 Piece 3658, Folio 45, Page 29


??
Catherine Elizabeth Campbell married Jonadab Edwards, 1854, St Nicholas
Trying to find a Edwards / Laughern/Laugharne marriage?

[Katie]

That's the one I have been following. I was unable to locate a marriage for Catherine to a Laugharne

The children for my Charles Henry where

Mary Born 1899
Charles Born 1901
Catherine Lorne born 1905 she married a Coogan
Fanny Lorne Born 1910
Annie Lorne she married Henry Dears

Some major skeletons are hidden in this Lorne side and I think they have shortened the name from Laugharne to Lorne to hide illegitimacy. I can't find any baptisms for the Laugharne children who lived in Portland in 1881.

I keep ruling these out because my Charles was in Comus Street in 1901 and Charles Laugharne the Lamplighter was with his mum Catherine but when I try again I keep ending up with this family.

[Katie]

In 1871 Joshua Campbell is residing in Kirkdale

RG10/3827 folio 9 page 11 Catherine is recorded as being Edwards and but she has a Catherine Lane b1867 and Fanny Lams aged 1. If you look at the original it does look like Lorne

[Bertieone]

I can see a link in 1911
RG 14 Piece 22541

Catherine E Laugharne, Grandmother,

Harrison Black,
Catherine Black
Children,

Harrison married Catherine Lorne, 1886, Liverpool.

[Bertieone]

In 1871 Joshua Campbell is residing in Kirkdale

RG10/3827 folio 9 page 11 Catherine is recorded as being Edwards and but she has a Catherine Lane b1867 and Fanny Lams aged 1. If you look at the original it does look like Lorne

I agree, it does look like Lorne.

Reaching for the pills

[Bertieone]

It looks like the 2 children in question have been registered as Laugharne.

[Katie]

No Charles with them

I have this marriage of a Emily Lorne to Francis W Healey

Name: Emily Lorne
Birth Year: abt 1882
Age: 19
Marriage Date: 5 Aug 1901
Parish: Everton Christ Church
Spouse's Name: Francis William Healey
Father's Name: George Lorne- Fisherman
Spouse Father's Name: Francis Healey

This is the marriage of Catherine Lorne to Harrison Black

Name: Catherine Lorne
Birth Year: abt 1867
Age: 19
Marriage Date: 16 May 1886
Parish: Liverpool All Saints
Spouse's Name: Harrison Black
Father's Name: George Lorne-Fisherman-Deceased
Spouse Father's Name: William Black

I wonder where Emily is in 1891?

[Bertieone]

When pronounced it does sound like Lorne, so can understand any mix ups.

http://www.forvo.com/word/laugharne/

[Katie]

I think I may have found Emily Laughran born c1883 in 1901 RG/13 3435 f6 pge 4 up Toxteth way her birth place is Monaghan Ireland

[Bertieone]

I think I may have found Emily Laughran born c1883 in 1901 RG/13 3435 f6 pge 4 up Toxteth way her birth place is Monaghan Ireland

Where is she and Francis in 1911?

[Katie]

I haven't been able to pick them up.

I have a child baptised in St Nicholas, Copperas Hill in 1904 called Elizabeth and some birth Registrations for other children after 1911 but the have eluded me in 1911.

[Bertieone]

I think I may have found Emily Laughran born c1883 in 1901 RG/13 3435 f6 pge 4 up Toxteth way her birth place is Monaghan Ireland

Where is she and Francis in 1911?

Can't find them anywhere

[Katie]

Nope I can't either I have checked Ireland with zero results.

Thanks for helping on this.

[Gray]

Hi Katie,

Have been having a scout around.. nothing yet for c1911.

There is however a

Francis Healey listed WW1 service records 1914-1920

birth yr: c1880
age on enlistment 37
residence:34 Victoria Str; L.pool
Document year:1917
Regimental No: 72412
Regiment name: Lab Cor Depot KLR
No of images: 30 (few bits but very faint)

Page 2 has his wife listed, again very faint but maiden name looks like LORNE
33 Ben Johnson str; Off Scotland Rd;

There appears to be a child listed but too faint to read.

There is also on Free BMD:
Healey James J (mmn) Loughnane W. Derby Sept 1914 8b 1116

Will keep looking 1911

Cannot find a Francis Healey born L.pool in the time frame.

Gray

[Bertieone]

Well done Gray,

Definitly says Next of Kin, Emily Healey,

Also confirm Emily Lorne,

Further on, soldiers parish of birth, Burnley, Lancs.

[Gray]

Thanks Bert..

Katie, there is also some personal stuff re Francis that I won't put here.

Gray

[Katie]

Thanks Gray. The Healey family were Catholic. It's just connecting my Charles Henry Lorne to the Healeys

On the baptism I found which got me started of again on this it has:

Date of Birth: 7th August 1890
Date of Baptism: 29th May 1914
Name: William Henry Laugharne
Son of Henry and Catherine Laugharne (Nee Lloyd)
James Healey and Timothy Healey were witnesses

This baptism was a All Souls, Collingwood Street.

I searched for a Catherine Lloyd getting married to a Laugharne but I couldn't find one
Now strangely, it just so happens that a Catherine Lloyd married a Francis Healey in June qtr 1873.

Prior to that she was married to a Harvey M Lloyd in 1868 at St. Peter's

I have located the marriage for a William Henry Langharne to Catherine A Lloyd in 1889 at St. Matthews
so there another spelling to consider.

[Katie]

Deary Deary me! looking at his War Records.

I think his told a porky about his place of birth:


Name Age
Francis Healey 42
Catherine Healey 42
Martin Healey 14
Francis W Healey 11
James Healey 7
Thomas Healey 2
Timothy Healey 2/12

2951
folio 86
Page 54

Source 1891 Census