JOHN WILLIAM DAVIES AND NORAH PRENDERGAST

[Sue H]

Hi folk.......here I am again........still trying to trace my great grandparents.

I cant go any further for my search for Norah without finding them on the 1901 census. All possible Norah's I have had lead no where.......

I know my Norah Prendergast is not the one we found who married Albert Biggs....then Mr Harry Coventry.............I found a relative of Alberts on Ancestry and she confirm there was a child called Hilda and that after Alberts death (he died of an industrial accident when Hilda was young) Norah lived with her till she remarried to Harry. Gutted because I had done so much with pictures and stories for them, as did others on this site

also the Honora Prendergast I found and the details you found for me have lead to a dead end........literally!!

Anyway can anyone see what I cant! Facts as they stand

John William Davies

1889 at the age of 13 he lived at 35 Abyssinia, Wavertree, Lancashire with William Jones his step father and his mother Sara West (Smart...Davies) Jones and his youngest brother Charles.


1895 at the age of 16 he is living at 16 Holden Street.......Resident there for the past year. He has joined the army as a volunteer.... Age at attestation: 17 years 10 months Attestation date: 4 March 1895 Attestation corps: 4TH BATTALION LIVERPOOL REGIMENT Attestation soldier number: 3264 Discharge rank: Discharge corps: King's (Liverpool Regiment)........I have not seen these details, they were found for me. Would he have lived at home.........or would he have been posted somewhere, cant find much on this

So it seems John William Davies joined the army twice.....here and then again in 1914. The odd thing is on his death while in the Army, his next of kin is his mother, not Norah and by then he had had 5 children.......3 living, one with his mother!!


1901...........the only trace of him in 1901 is the fact he and Norah (or Norah alone ) baptised their daughter Jessie May West. The address recorded on here is 37 Exe Street Liverpool. This was on 15th March 1902.

Jessie May's birth certificate gives the same details
Born 13th December 1901.........birth was registered on 11th February 1902 once again the address was 39 Exe street, and signed by Norah......and name given as Davies formly Prendergast and naming John William Davies as Dad!!


The next bit is pure guess work...........family tales say that he was a music hall artiste (we all know he had many trades!!) But in 1901 census his mother and step father, along with Sara's brother in law (her sister had died) and his children are living at........ 40 Lonsdale Street, Bootle. Abercromby district of St Saviours Parish BUT ALSO living there is a Arthur Templeton......who is a Music Hall Artisite!!

So where do I go from here..........if say he was performing the day/night of the census, would he have been recorded from where ever he was performing.

And Norah.......well she is driving me mad!! On the 1911 census, the only one I can find her on........with my nan and my auntie.........she states she has been married 12 years......but there appears to be no record of a marriage

So maybe if I can with your help find John Wiliam Davies on the 1901 census I can find Norah!!

Sorry to ask for help with this again but I have hit so many brick walls I am dizzy

[dickiesam]

Hello Sue,
Re First name(s): John W
Last name: DAVIES
Age at attestation: 17 years 10 months
Attestation date: 4 March 1895

There are 3 docs relating to his Militia service. Seems he was a titch at just under 5 ft 3 inch in his socks.
RE:

if say he was performing the day/night of the census, would he have been recorded from where ever he was performing.

The rule is that he would have been recorded wherever he actually spent the night of Sunday the 31st of March 1901. So if he was away and in digs, that is were he would have been enumerated.

[Sue H]

How long would he have signed up for as a volunteer.........and if he went AWOL, would they not have gone looking for him.

So if the census was 31st March............nine months later Jessie May possibly..........so I need to find him as you say possibly digs. If he was working that night in a show (presuming he told at least on truth) would he have been listed where ever he was performing?

[dickiesam]

Little devil wasnt he!! How long would he have signed up for as a volunteer.........and if he went AWOL, would they not have gone looking for him.

So if the census was 31st March............nine months later Jessie May possibly..........so I need to find him as you say possibly digs. If he was working that night in a show (presuming he told at least one truth) would he have been listed where ever he was performing?

Both he, on his enlistment papers in 1896, and Norah in the 1911, state he is a painter! The note on the household return says he was 'travelling', so a journeyman painter would be an ideal occupation for a bigamist or someone leading a double life. There isn't a marriage to Norah so was he already married and she knew it?

In 1901 he may still have been in the Army and if abroad would not have been counted. I have trawled the last census looking at all the John William Davies' bn 1876 +/- 5 and none were in digs although some were painters.

Regarding that intriguing find in 1901, Arthur Templeton, music hall artiste... Staying with JWD's mother and step-father in 1901.
I think this is he:
RG11 - Piece: 3705 - Folio: 104 - Page: 38
Address: 2 Cardwell St, West Derby.
TEMPLETON, Arthur Gerrard - Son - 1 - Liverpool, Lancashire
His father is a dentist.

RG12 - Piece: 2938 - Folio: 49 - Page: 37
Address: 16 Lydiate Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
TEMPLETON, Arthur - Son - 11 - Scholar - Liverpool, Lancashire.
His mother is now a widow and he has a sister named Jessie! Coincidence?

[Bertieone]

Hi Sue,

The 1914 soldier, John William Davies, 5004, 10th Bat, KLR (Scottish) has his mother as next of kin, named as Sarah Jones Hughes, of Thames St, in a later letter, Liverpool City Police, can only assume they had trouble finding her for whatever, Sarah Jones declares she remarried 39 years earlier when John was about 4. How does this fall into the grand scheme of things?

[Sue H]

Just checked .........he signed up in the army for 6 years........so that would have been up to 1901.

And blow me JESSIE MAY Templeton , Arthur Templeton sister is a musical hall artiste in 1901 in Birmingham!!

Now sure what all this is leading to..........the rest of Jessie's family are in London.......they own and all work in mums coffee house

[Sue H]

Hi Bert,

got all that Sara married twice.......2 boys (william davies was the father of both boys)

But as you can see also, his next of kin is his mother...........which has made me believe he didnt marry no matter what Nora states..........otherwise wouldnt the pension go to her and the children

All the birth certificates for the children say Norah Davies, ne Prendergast.......but who she is well anyones gues at this point


Just found a Jessie May Templeton, who is the sister of the boarder with Sara and family in 1901.............she is a musical hall artiste in Birmingham in 1901!!

[Sue H]

Found Jessie again living with her sister in 1911 she is 28, she is unmarried a still a musica hall artiste. So that puts Norah as not being Jessie in disguise!! She died single in 1939 in Middlesex

[Bertieone]

Hi Sue,

I don't think he married Norah, probably easier to name his mother as next of kin to save explanation, where does the Hughes come in concerning Sarah Jones Hughes?

[Sue H]

Hi Bert

Dont know she never married again she died in 1936 a widow. William Jones her second husband died in 1931. Her grand daughter Jessie May signed the death certificate........she still lived at 48 Thames street, this is the address John was enlisted at. and Jessie married from .........Jessie by this time had morphed from grandaughter.....to signing as daughter.

What is odd.........my nan Sara Davies (one of John William Davies and Norahs daughters) did married a Richard William Hughes, in 1926.....but I have traced and been in contact with a tree holder who can not put anyone together with Sara from the Hughes family. So whether this is a mistake I am not sure

[Bertieone]

Hi Sue,

From your first post,

"John William Davies

1889 at the age of 13 he lived at 35 Abyssinia, Wavertree, Lancashire with William Jones his step father and his mother Sara West (Smart...Davies) Jones and his youngest brother Charles."

I'm not doubting the above,
In the Liverpool Police Letter dated 1921, Sarah Jones states she remarried 39 years ago when John was 4 years old, that would be 1882 when she married. perhaps bad maths.

[Alison C]

Regarding that intriguing find in 1901, Arthur Templeton, music hall artiste... Staying with JWD's mother and step-father in 1901, then disappears... No marriage, death, nor coming up in the later census.

FreeBMD has a death for an Arthur G Templeton in Q3 1910, aged 27 (Toxteth Park, 8b, 144)

Deaths Sep 1910 (>99%)
Templeton Arthur G 27 Toxteth P. 8b 144

He is buried in Toxteth Park cemetery in a public grave:
TEMPLETON Arthur Gerard
Age 27 years
Music Hall Artist
Address: 2 Cam Street
Died: 1 September 1910
Consecrated section, Section 10, Grave 54

Alison

[Alison C]

Looks like Jessie Templeton was a Tiller Girl!:

http://www.tillergirls.com/Tiller%20Sch ... %20027.jpg

[simone]

Hi Sue

just trying to refresh myself on this

John William's brother Charles married in 1908


Charles Davies, Painter, 10 Chalmers Street
Birth Year: abt 1882
Age: 26
Marriage Date: 7 Jun 1908
Parish: Edge Hill St Catherine
Spouse's Name: Gertrude Roberts
Father's Name: William Davies, Painter, deceased
Spouse Father's Name: Evan Roberts, timber clerk, 62 Willoughby Street


do you know where they are in 1910 +1

[dickiesam]

Regarding that intriguing find in 1901, Arthur Templeton, music hall artiste... Staying with JWD's mother and step-father in 1901, then disappears... No marriage, death, nor coming up in the later census.

FreeBMD has a death for an Arthur G Templeton in Q3 1910, aged 27 (Toxteth Park, 8b, 144)

Deaths Sep 1910 (>99%)
Templeton Arthur G 27 Toxteth P. 8b 144

He is buried in Toxteth Park cemetery in a public grave:
TEMPLETON Arthur Gerard
Age 27 years
Music Hall Artist
Address: 2 Cam Street
Died: 1 September 1910
Consecrated section, Section 10, Grave 54

Alison

Thanks for that find Alison, I must have been not looking when I inputted the search parameters. Good job we have extra eyes! I have amended my original post now I know he didn't just disappear.

[Bertieone]

Hi Sue

just trying to refresh myself on this

John William's brother Charles married in 1908


Charles Davies, Painter, 10 Chalmers Street
Birth Year: abt 1882
Age: 26
Marriage Date: 7 Jun 1908
Parish: Edge Hill St Catherine
Spouse's Name: Gertrude Roberts
Father's Name: William Davies, Painter, deceased
Spouse Father's Name: Evan Roberts, timber clerk, 62 Willoughby Street


do you know where they are in 1910 +1

Charles Davies, Family
18 Palmerston St, Liverpool

1911,
RG14, piece 22594

[simone]

Ahh thanks Bert

[Sue H]

Hi folks just to update

Sara West Smart married William Davies 5th Aug 1877
William Jones 11th June 1890 so on Johns death she had been married about 25 years.

Charles her other son married Gertrude Roberts 7th June 1908, and once again have been intouch with his family and they confirm details. Charles also died in 27th January 1917 in world war 1. So Sara lost both her sons in the 1st ww. Charles family could give me know information about John.......although I did get a hit on here from someone who remembers the family and maybe Norah they promised to get in touch, unfortunately it didnt happen.

So I know for certain I have the right Davies family. Its just John and Norah that are the puzzle. You are probably right they didnt marry.......was he married to someone else, dont suppose I will ever know

Suprises me about Arthur Templeton being buried in a public grave..........his mother had a coffee shop in Covent Garden.........although his sister Jessie May died young also

Anyway another look before bed

[Bertieone]

Sue,

Soldier, 5004, can't be yours, 1915 death and other dates don't match. Has the address Thames St cropped up elsewhere other than on the death cert.

[dickiesam]

Re:

Just a thought on Johns first war records.........there didnt seem to be a discharge date. Am I reading it right that he joined and then went AWOL and never returned........how did he manage to join again.........and not given details of the previous service?

The page with his 1896 enlistment has in addition to a reference to being AWOL for a week, a pencilled notation across the top left, "Dis Per Unfit 7 - 6 - 95". So he only served a couple of months.