The Murray Family of Liverpool

[winstonevertongroovy]

Thanks Simone, I'm planing a trip up to Liverpool sometime early in the new year,(live in Devon now), and hope to spend a few days at the records office searching, in the meantime I've sent an e-mail to one of the few relatives I'm in contact with to see what she thinks of the Irish connection, she is older that me & remembers a bit more.
Lee

[simone]

one more snippet of coincidence

Thomas Murray b c 1874, labourer, son of Peter and Grace, living in Clifton street in 1910 +1 (RG14; Piece: 22526;), had a son called Thomas. By the time young Thomas marries in 1920 his dad is Fireman


Thomas Murray,23, labourer, 25 Sheriff St
Marriage Date: 25 Dec 1920
Parish: Everton St Ambrose
Spouse's Name: Sarah Ann Hall, 18
Father's Name: Thomas Murray, Fireman
Spouse Father's Name: Edwin Frank Hall, Hairdresser
witnesses Mary Murray and Robert Hodgson

[winstonevertongroovy]

Just had a look at my tree and so far I have Peter & Grace pencilled in with sons Peter & George plus daughter Susannah?, no Thomas though so I presume I've overlooked him.

[simone]

The family have stuck together

Young Thomas married from Sherrif St in 1913. His Uncle George and Aunt Sarah had a baby Samuel in 1902 whi died 12 months old, buried at Walton Park, from 8 Sheriff Street.

Maybe these streets will ring a bell with someone. Have you checked your dad's marriage certificate for any clues?

Simone x

[simone]

Just had a look at my tree and so far I have Peter & Grace pencilled in with sons Peter & George plus daughter Susannah?, no Thomas though so I presume I've overlooked him.

1881 census
RG11; Piece: 3658; Folio: 90; Page: 20
Anthony Carruthers,40 electrician b Annam, Dumfries
Catherine Carruthers 44 tailoress, b Lithgow?
Peter Murray 49 brother,telegraph worker, b Leitrim Ireland
Grace Murray 46 sister b Scotland
George Murray 10 Glasgow
Thomas Murray6 b Glasgow
Anthony Murray 4 months b Liverpool
Elizabeth Bell 16 visitor, unmarried b Glasgow

looks like Anthony Carruthers is Grace's brother.

good news is that if you confirm all this as yours, the Carruthers family is on Scottish census too

[winstonevertongroovy]

woah slow down Simone haha, everytime I turn around you've found something new, (maybe you should spend a few days on a farm in Devon as I think you could really help me lol). I've had a good look at the replies you've put up over the last few days but I'm as confused as ever I'm afraid and I cannot for the life of me see how I could ever come up with stuff like this, you must have had a lot of practice
The one thing that is still bugging me is the fact that I cannot see my nin & grandad, (Peter & Mary Jane), on any census's after they were married. The only info I can find on my dad's marriage is an entry in the marriage index of the time, maybe I should order a copy of his marriage certificate, is this possible?

[simone]

yes I don't have a life Lee.. spend all my time searching for one deceased person or another

If you have the reference you can order the marriage certificate through

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

costs £9.25 I think.

It may not give you anything, but may be worth a try.

Do you know which church they married in? If so you could ask for a look up to save ordering the certificate, if someone is going to the record office.


Alternatively try
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/mar ... lancashire

put the name in with the year or range of years... if it is transcribed on here, you may find out which church and then ask for a look up.

Simone x

[simone]

Peter and Mary may not be on the census after marriage because they were away from home for some reason. They may have been visiting family elsewhere, or if Peter was a Fireman he could have been aboard ship. I believe sometimes spouses could go to sea with them. Somone else on here will know more about that. Also it could be that they have simply been missed off for some reason or totally mistranscribed, sometimes incorrectly as part of another family.. We've seen some sights on here

[winstonevertongroovy]

Thanks for the link Simone, just found out they were married at St. Saviours church in Everton and the reference number is 2125WD/8/147. Is this the ref number I use to order the certificate and/or can I search the Liverpool Records Office online with it,(actually I'll try that now & see what happens).

Ok that doesn't work then.

[simone]

To try and sum up

Peter and Grace Murray had sons George, Thomas and Peter.

Your Peter married at St Ambrose Everton, as did George and Thomas. I can't see another Peter who married there to fit as a son as Peter and Grace except possibly yours.

In 1901 Peter and Grace, son Peter, and son George with his wife Sarah and family are living at Prince Edwin Street.
George married from Prince Edwin St in 1891, Thomas from Clifton St. in 1896. Your grandad Peter puts Prince Edwin Lane on his marriage cert in 1910. The Howorths were from Clifton Street. George and Thomas settle in Clifton St after marriage. This could be how Peter met Mary.
Peter Snr from Ireland was a labourer in 1911.
Thomas becomes a Fireman like your Peter.
Later on they move to Sheriff Street by the looks of it as Thomas's son Thomas marries from there at St Ambrose, Everton in 1920 and George has a child Samuel there.

You could also ask your contacts if they have heard the name Carruthers before.

The ref you gave is for ordering via the LANCS bmd site I gave you. You can click on the ref link and will get a form to complete.

The GRO ref you will get from Ancestry or FREEBMD website.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
It will be a district, volume no(usually 8b for Liverpool) and a page number.

If someone on here is going to the record office they may look at it for you if you give the quarter the marriage took place and the year.

We don't recommend you post details of any living people on here or what would be considered recent events. Although your dad has passed you may wish just to put on a new message requesting a lookup at Liverpool records office and then if you get a response you could send the details in a private message.

Got to go now.. hopefully someone else will look through all this too.

Happy New Year

Simone x

[winstonevertongroovy]

Thank you once again Simone, brilliant work.
All the best
Lee x

[dickiesam]

Lee,
This is the marriage you needed the GRO reference for...

Marriage: MURRAY, Peter married HOWORTH, Mary Jane
GRO Reference:
Registration district: West Derby, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1910; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 442

You can't find anyone in any census after the 1911 because the census information is held under the 100 year privacy rule. The next census, the 1921, will hopefully be released about 2020.

[simone]

Hi DS

It is his dad's marriage Peter was thinking about, not his grandad's. Maybe witnesses will give a clue, or addresses.

Happy New Year

Simone x

[winstonevertongroovy]

Hi DS

It is his dad's marriage Peter was thinking about, not his grandad's. Maybe witnesses will give a clue, or addresses.

Happy New Year



Simone x

You've got Peter on the brain at the minute Simone lol
LEE

[simone]

having trouble finding St Saviour's in Liverpool Record Office Catalogue, certainly can't see later Parish Registers listed. Does anyone know if this church has the registers deposited with the Record Office for the 1950's?

Thanks

Simone x

[simone]

You've got Peter on the brain at the minute Simone lol
LEE

sorry LEE

[simone]

There are other Murray's married from Prince Edwin Lane, at St Ambrose, after 1910, but they name their father's as James and Stephen. May be relatives though

[Bertieone]

Hi Lee, well done Simone.

1871 Scotland census,
33 Muirhead St, Lanarshire.
Helen Carruthers 62
Charlotte 32
GRACE 30
Thomas 19
Patrick Menor 26
William Carruthers 10
Elizabeth ... 5
George E Morrow 9mths
ED97 Page19 Line9

1861
Annan, Dumfries,
John Carruthers 55
Helen 52
Anthony 21
George 12
Thomas 10
Charlotte 25
GRACE, 23
Janet 6
ED4 Page22 Line21

1851, Annan, Dumfries,
ED1a Page1 Line4

1841, Annan Dunfries,
ED1a Page10 Line930.

[Bertieone]

Hi Lee,

From a tree on Ancestry, info may have come from Scotlands People, needs checking,
Graces full name, Mary Ann Grace Carruthers, Helen Carruthers maiden name, Glover, born 1809, Gretna, dumfries.



It looks like the uncontrollable urges you have to adorn the mantelpiece with ornaments of highland cattle and dreams of eating shortbread in a bothy are justified.

[Bertieone]

Forgot to mention,

1871 Scotland cesus,

Patrick Menor, transcription error, must be Peter Murray, born Ireland, son in law, Telegraph worker.