Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I couldn't find a service record for Frank Young. I'm posting his details in case anyone can suggest what the sequence might have been and why, or throw any other light. Generally; I assume that he volunteered in 1914, joined the full army in March 1916 and ended with the 17th King's Royal Rifle Corp at Ancre Heights in late October that year. I guess some/most of the time he worked on construction. I don't know if he was full time fighting by the end? He started his full army service with the 20th KRRC and ended with the 17th KRRC. Would his time from March to October have been in the KRRC, so that the other regiments shown on the medal cards were from his earlier, volunteer, service? Also; on his rank... there are various entries of Corporal and Lance Sergeant. There's even a Wimereux grave document with typed Cpl marked out and L/Sgt handwritten in.

Frank Young was born in 1881 in Padiham. His father, Francis James, was a joiner and Frank is shown as a joiner on the 1901 census. However, he moved to Liverpool about 1904/5 and was probably working in insurance when the war started.

A couple of cards exist which I assume show that he volunteered in 1914 and joined the 'full' army in March 1916.

Character Certificate of 20533
Private Frank Young
No 6 Supny Co 2/5 K'L'pool Regiment
Born in the Parish of Padiham
Date 15th November 1881
Trade as stated by him on enlistment Joiner
Date of enlistment 3rd October 1914.
Proceeded on Furlough pending transfer to the Army Reserve, or Discharge on 24th March 1916
due for final Discharge on - 24th March 1916
cause of Transfer or Discharge - re-enlisted into Kings Royal Rifles.

Handwritten: Joiner by trade.
Sober, honest & trustworthy
& good at his trade.

Signature T. A. Chally? Major
Commanding Supny T F Cos Datford
Date 27/3/16

*************

Handwritten on another card:
Re-enlisted in 20th K.R.R. March 25th 16
E. J. Elliott Capt R.O.

*************
Medal Card left - right; top - bottom

L N Lan R Pte 55151
R W Kent R Pte 204917
L N Lan R Pte 266205
KOYLI arc A/Cpl 32969
R Berks R La 33057
K R Rif C Cpl R/20512

*************
Rolls

Royal Army Veterinary corps 33692 YOUNG FRANK
previously served 32969, K.O.Y.L.I. A/Cpl

266205 Pte YOUNG Frank 1/12 L.N. Lancs

204917 Pte 4th Royal West Kent
previously 1/5 RWK,204917.PTE.

33057 Pte YOUNG, Frank 1 R.Berks R
Theatres of war in which served - ODB

R20512 Cpl YOUNG Frank 17th Bn. K.R.Rif.C.

Hi Luxor,

You've got a bit of a tangle to sort out there - the medal roll and index card entries you have listed are all for different men.

Your Frank Young who died 29/10/1916 and is buried in Wimereux cemetery only served in the K.R.R.C.

The 1914 enlistment was in the Territorial Force, probably he was already in the national reserve. The older or less fit-for-service men from these supernumerary companies were used for home service only but Frank would appear to have been suitable for regular service. When more men were needed, TF men like Frank were asked to transfer to the regular battalions but this had to be done via discharging them and re-enlisting so they were no longer under the TF regulations.

Frank re-enlisted in the 20th KRRC on 25th March 1916, this Battalion landed in Le Havre 30th March 1916. The 20th joined the 3rd division as the pioneer battalion on 19th May 1916.
However , records of Frank's death show that he was with the 17th battalion. He must have been transferred to this regiment after travelling with the 20th as the 17th were in France at the beginning of March 1916. The 17th were certainly involved in fighting as there are numerous casualties from this battalion around the time Frank died. It seems likely that he was wounded in action and died from those wounds an unknown time later.

To get a better idea of what the 17th Battalion was doing you can purchase and download the battalion war diary from the national archives for £3.30 here is a link to it:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... r/C7354218

I hope this is useful to you.
Amanda

alcavtay wrote: I hope this is useful to you.
Amanda

Er... just a little... THANKS A MILLION!

I bought a medal card from the National Archives and assumed it must be gospel, but I suppose if the service records get lost then everyone is struggling. I knew he was in the KRRC but the others were a mystery. I'd seen the 17 KRRC War Diary on Ancestry, but had no idea it could be purchased complete - thanks!

A letter from a nursing Sister at the time says that he was wounded on the 21st October 1916 and 'was compelled to lie in a German dugout for 5 days without any medical attention and very little food and was therefore in a very weak state on admission.' The date is consistent with the war diary and various websites; the British had been getting the upper hand at the Schwaben Redoubt for a while, but the Germans had new weapons and launched an attack on the morning of the 21st.

'4.45am An intense barrage is placed on our front line by the enemy.'
By 4.30pm they recorded casualties: 16 killed, 63 wounded, 7 missing, 4 wounded shell shock, 1 died of wounds.

I'm assuming that Frank Young was one of the seven missing that day.

I think this is as far as I'm going to get with Frank Young's time in the military; I'm more than content. Thanks again to all you folks who helped sort it out.

I'm always grateful for Amanda's help, she's very knowledgeable about the King's, thanks Amanda

Following up on this old thread; the advice clarified Frank Young's service from March 1914 in the regular army (KRRC) - but I'm wondering now where he was before that. I know this isn't a specialist military forum but there are some very knowledgeable folk here...

Two cards survive:

CHARACTER CERTIFICATE OF No. 20533
Private Frank Young
No 6 Supay Co 2/5 K'L'pool Regiment

This is to certify that No. 20533 Pte Frank Young has served with the Colours in the No 6 Supny Co K'liverpool Rgt for 1 5/12 years.

*******************

DISCHARGE CERTIFICATE OF A SOLDIER OF THE TERRITORIAL FORCE

This is to certify that (Name) Private Frank Young (Unit) No 6 Supay T F Co 3/5 K'Liverpool Rgt who was enlisted to serve in the Territorial force of the County of liverpool on the 3rd day of October 1914,is discharged in consequence of re-enlisting into Regl Army King's Royal Rifles...

His total service 1 years 174 days embodied service...

(Signature...) T.H. Chall? Major
(Place and Date) Dartford 27th March 1916

*******************

One card says '2/5 King's Liverpool'; the other says '3/5'.

There appear to have been a large number of King's Liverpool battalions, with changes of purpose, amalgamations, etc over the course of WW1. References I've seen to the 3/5 are always as a training battalion but some references to the 2/5 say it was in France eventually. I have the war diary for the 2/5 for Aug 1915 - Feb 1916. They were training in Canterbury at this time, having moved from Blackpool on 1st March 1915. Interestingly, an entry on 13th December 1915 shows:

'92 men transferred to 3/5th King's Liverpool Regt. to reduce establishment to minimum numbers of 600.'

The war diary ends with the regiment getting a 'prepare to move...' order at the end of February 1915. (There is no further diary listed until 1917).

I'd welcome any light anyone can shine on this.
Were the 2/5 and 3/5 really just a way to split a large number of volunteers into manageable units?
Could the references to 2/5 and 3/5 be an error - both cards say No 6 Supernumerary Company?
Why would Frank Young have been transferred to the King's Royal Rifle Corps - was this as a consequence of joining the regular army while the 2/5 and 3/5 KLR were TF battalions?
What was happening in Blackpool in 1914/15?

2/5th Battalion, The King's Liverpool Regiment was formed in August 1914 as an overflow to the original 5th Battalion, a Territorial Force unit. It absorbed men from the originals who had not signed up to serve overseas. In November 1914 it was based in Blackpool and then Canterbury from Feb 1915. July 1916 Aldershot, then France from Feb 1917 in 57th Division until disbandment in Feb 1918.

3/5th Battalion formed in May 1915 and went to Blackpool in autumn that year. Early 1916 to Oswestry, and in April became a Reserve Battalion which did not go overseas.

If Promenade of this forum sees this he may well be able to add more detail. He is the King's Regimental expert par excellence.

Note: the KRRC and King's Liverpool are two quite different regiments.

D

Thanks daggers.

Frank Young's transfer paperwork was done at Dartford, so I was assuming Canterbury rather than Oswestry. I was typing a reply earlier, when it struck me that the date was significant. The typed date of discharge was (Monday) 27th March 1916. However, the war diary of the 20th K.R.R.C. opens on that day with details of how they travelled from Wellingborough to Southampton on trains at 7.15a.m., 9.00a.m. and 10.20a.m., arriving 2.30p.m, 4.00p.m. and 5.00p.m. It seems unlikely that Frank Young was in Dartford on that day. A handwritten note on the back of the card says that he re-enlisted in the 20th KRR on (Saturday) 25th March so maybe he travelled to Dartford at the end of the previous week to do the paperwork and someone post-dated the effective date to the following Monday. Or maybe he wasn't there; maybe all was done by post - I don't know how these things worked.

It is still possible that he went to Oswestry with the 3/5 King's Liverpool as one of the 92 transferred in December 1915.