Memorial. Detective work required
Posted: 10 Aug 2013 20:45
I am seeking help in relation to the origins of a war memorial in honour of 16 men who died in World War 1.
The enquiry has been raised by Cllr Gary Millar the current Lord Mayor of Liverpool. The memorial is clearly from a church or chapel. Enquires so far seem to suggest that it may be from St Peter’s Church High Park Street Liverpool 8, although this is yet to be confirmed.
Similar requests have been placed on the following forum threads:-
http://my-liverpool.proboards.com/threa ... k-required
http://www.bootlehistory.co.uk/forum/vi ... hp?t=26476
The message is self explanatory.
Armchair.
I have found another war memorial. This time from the first world war. Unfortunately it does not tell us where it comes from apart from the clue below which tells us its a church. I have typed in below the details as they appear on the plaque and wondered if you and your fantastic historians are able to find out more details: -
"To the glory of god in affectionate memory of the men connected with this church who laid down their lives during the Great War 1914-1919"
- Clarence Adams
- Vivian Adams
- William Ashplant
- Samuel R Clarke
- James Clunas
- Joseph Eardley
- John H Griffiths
- Harry Griffiths
- E Kingston Fleming
- Wildred W Hall
- J Keggen Maddrell
- Thomas Pickersgill
- William Robinson
- William Thistlewood
- Harry Thistlewood
- James Thomas
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends - John XV 13"
Best Wishes, Gary
Cllr Gary Millar
Lord Mayor of Liverpool
Councillor for Old Swan
I have done a little research on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site, using the more unusual names.
Whilst the men killed were from differing arms and died in a variety of actions, the one thing that they have in common is that they are all from the Dingle/Toxteth Park area of Liverpool.
So on that basis it seems likely that the memorial is from a church in that area.
WAR MEMORIAL
ADAMS, VIVIAN MAUNDER
Rank:
Private
Service No:
241625
Date of Death:
01/08/1917
Age:
25
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
6th Bn
Grave Reference
XVI. G. 21.
Cemetery
LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Mary Ellen Adams, of 29, Fore St., Salcombe, nr. Kingsbridge, Devon.
ASHPLANT, WILLIAM
Rank:
Private
Service No:
92457
Date of Death:
31/07/1917
Age:
30
Regiment/Service:
Tank Corps
"F" Bn.
Panel Reference
Panel 56.
Memorial
YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of William and Mary Ashplant.
EARDLEY, JOSEPH
Rank:
Corporal
Service No:
16566
Date of Death:
15/03/1917
Age:
28
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
18th Bn.
Grave Reference
D. 1.
Cemetery
AGNY MILITARY CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Richard and Margaret G. Eardley, of 18, Hodges Mount, Liverpool.
Hodges Mount is in Toxteth Park in the parish of St Silas. Apparently Hodges Mount was pulled down to extend Mount Carmel School
HALL, WILFRED WILSON
Rank:
Private
Service No:
4059
Date of Death:
26/05/1916
Age:
19
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
1st/6th Bn.
Grave Reference
I. A. 23.
Cemetery
AVESNES-LE-COMTE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
Additional Information:
Native of Liverpool. Son of Thomas G. and Jane Hall, of 49, Wilson Street, Dingle, Liverpool.
FLEMING, ERNEST KINGSTON
Rank:
Engineer Lieutenant
Date of Death:
20/03/1919
Age:
30
Regiment/Service:
Royal Navy
H.M.S. Glorious
Grave Reference
IV. N.C. 328.
Cemetery
LIVERPOOL (TOXTETH PARK) CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of John and Frances Margaret Hatch Fleming; husband of Susan Hutton Fleming, of 81, Errol St., St. Michael's, Liverpool.
MADDRELL, JAMES KEGGAN
Rank:
Lieutenant
Date of Death:
23/04/1917
Age:
26
Regiment/Service:
Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)
90th Coy
Panel Reference
Bay 10.
Memorial
ARRAS MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of James and Catherine Maddrell, of 38, Wellesley Rd., Dingle, Liverpool.
PICKERSGILL, THOMAS STANLEY
Rank:
Private
Service No:
16604
Date of Death:
01/07/1916
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
18th Bn.
Panel Reference
Pier and Face 1 D 8 B and 8 C.
Memorial
THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
THISTLEWOOD, W M
Rank:
Lance Corporal
Service No:
1789
Date of Death:
26/04/1915
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
1st/6th Bn.
Grave Reference
V. A. 2.
Cemetery
RAILWAY DUGOUTS BURIAL GROUND
Additional Information:
THISTLEWOOD, HARRY
Rank:
Private
Service No:
201325
Date of Death:
21/08/1918
Age:
21
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
13th Bn.
Grave Reference
VI. J. 5.
Cemetery
BUCQUOY ROAD CEMETERY, FICHEUX
Additional Information:
Son of Thomas E. and Elizabeth Thistlewood, of 10, Danube St., Liverpool.
I have had this information from Marie McQuade from Merseyside Role of Honour
Thanks for the link etc.
I don't think a memorial with only sixteen names could come from either a C.of E. or R.C. Church. That alone makes me suspect that it came from a non-conformist establishment.
Added to that J K Maddrell is commemorated on a memorial at Christ Church Free C.of E. Church, Tuebrook, and E K Fleming is buried in the non-conformist section of Toxteth Park Cemetery.
I'll check the original burial registers for Toxteth Park Cemetery which should give the name of the minister who attended E K Fleming's funeral and hopefully this will pinpoint the correct church.
Alternatively, if service records for any of the soldiers have survived they should give their religious denomination.
I'll let you know what I find out.
Best wishes
Marie McQuade
The first two names on the memorial are brothers (Edwin) Clarence P and Vivian M Adams.
Their parents hail from Salcombe Devon. Their father being a shipwright who we can presume moved to Liverpool to find work. They show on the 1911 census for Grinshill Street Liverpool. Clarence was born in Salcombe Devon, Vivian was born in Liverpool.
Marie McQuade from Merseyside Role of Honour has done sterling work on this and all credit must go to her. She is suggesting that the memorial may be from St Peter's Wesleyan Church, High Park Street, Liverpool 8. Apparently the church was converted to apartments in 2008.
I have contacted helpdesk@methodistchurch.org.uk and asked them to attempt to verify the details.
Further from Marie McQuade
I've been able to check out the original documents at Liverpool Archives.
Unfortunately, the booklet published on the occasion of the centenary of St. Peter's Wesleyan Church didn't contain a photograph or physical description of the war memorial. It did, however, confirm that Arthur Phillips was the minister from 1917 until 1920.
I now have a connection between Rev Arthur Phillips and four out of sixteen of the men named on the memorial.
After the war relatives of deceased soldiers would be sent a form that they needed to fill up with the names of the surviving relatives in order to ascertain who was entitled to any war medals. This form had to be signed by a minister or magistrate. In three cases Arthur Phillips, Wesleyan Minister, of 15 Kelvin Grove was the witness. The three men were W W Hall, J Eardley and W M Thistlewood.
The Toxteth Park burial register confirms that Arthur Phillips officiated at the funeral of E K Fleming.
Although this isn't proof I'm 99% sure this must be the correct church, particularly as it was closed so recently. Perhaps the developers would be able to provide more information - unless one of the staff nicked the memorial!! Or an update in the Liverpool Echo with the name of the probable church might catch the attention of former parishioners.
Marie
So there are two parts to my request.
Can anyone confirm where this memorial was originally raised?
Are any of the descendents of the men named contactable?
I would anticipate that the memorial would be handed over to whichever religious organisation raised it. As such any service of re-dedication would be much enhanced if members of the men’s families could be present although we are in the realms of the “Great Great Uncle or Grandfather”.
A lengthy request I know but any help would be gratefully received and clearly acknowledged.
Armchair
The enquiry has been raised by Cllr Gary Millar the current Lord Mayor of Liverpool. The memorial is clearly from a church or chapel. Enquires so far seem to suggest that it may be from St Peter’s Church High Park Street Liverpool 8, although this is yet to be confirmed.
Similar requests have been placed on the following forum threads:-
http://my-liverpool.proboards.com/threa ... k-required
http://www.bootlehistory.co.uk/forum/vi ... hp?t=26476
The message is self explanatory.
Armchair.
I have found another war memorial. This time from the first world war. Unfortunately it does not tell us where it comes from apart from the clue below which tells us its a church. I have typed in below the details as they appear on the plaque and wondered if you and your fantastic historians are able to find out more details: -
"To the glory of god in affectionate memory of the men connected with this church who laid down their lives during the Great War 1914-1919"
- Clarence Adams
- Vivian Adams
- William Ashplant
- Samuel R Clarke
- James Clunas
- Joseph Eardley
- John H Griffiths
- Harry Griffiths
- E Kingston Fleming
- Wildred W Hall
- J Keggen Maddrell
- Thomas Pickersgill
- William Robinson
- William Thistlewood
- Harry Thistlewood
- James Thomas
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends - John XV 13"
Best Wishes, Gary
Cllr Gary Millar
Lord Mayor of Liverpool
Councillor for Old Swan
I have done a little research on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site, using the more unusual names.
Whilst the men killed were from differing arms and died in a variety of actions, the one thing that they have in common is that they are all from the Dingle/Toxteth Park area of Liverpool.
So on that basis it seems likely that the memorial is from a church in that area.
WAR MEMORIAL
ADAMS, VIVIAN MAUNDER
Rank:
Private
Service No:
241625
Date of Death:
01/08/1917
Age:
25
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
6th Bn
Grave Reference
XVI. G. 21.
Cemetery
LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Mary Ellen Adams, of 29, Fore St., Salcombe, nr. Kingsbridge, Devon.
ASHPLANT, WILLIAM
Rank:
Private
Service No:
92457
Date of Death:
31/07/1917
Age:
30
Regiment/Service:
Tank Corps
"F" Bn.
Panel Reference
Panel 56.
Memorial
YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of William and Mary Ashplant.
EARDLEY, JOSEPH
Rank:
Corporal
Service No:
16566
Date of Death:
15/03/1917
Age:
28
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
18th Bn.
Grave Reference
D. 1.
Cemetery
AGNY MILITARY CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Richard and Margaret G. Eardley, of 18, Hodges Mount, Liverpool.
Hodges Mount is in Toxteth Park in the parish of St Silas. Apparently Hodges Mount was pulled down to extend Mount Carmel School
HALL, WILFRED WILSON
Rank:
Private
Service No:
4059
Date of Death:
26/05/1916
Age:
19
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
1st/6th Bn.
Grave Reference
I. A. 23.
Cemetery
AVESNES-LE-COMTE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
Additional Information:
Native of Liverpool. Son of Thomas G. and Jane Hall, of 49, Wilson Street, Dingle, Liverpool.
FLEMING, ERNEST KINGSTON
Rank:
Engineer Lieutenant
Date of Death:
20/03/1919
Age:
30
Regiment/Service:
Royal Navy
H.M.S. Glorious
Grave Reference
IV. N.C. 328.
Cemetery
LIVERPOOL (TOXTETH PARK) CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of John and Frances Margaret Hatch Fleming; husband of Susan Hutton Fleming, of 81, Errol St., St. Michael's, Liverpool.
MADDRELL, JAMES KEGGAN
Rank:
Lieutenant
Date of Death:
23/04/1917
Age:
26
Regiment/Service:
Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)
90th Coy
Panel Reference
Bay 10.
Memorial
ARRAS MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of James and Catherine Maddrell, of 38, Wellesley Rd., Dingle, Liverpool.
PICKERSGILL, THOMAS STANLEY
Rank:
Private
Service No:
16604
Date of Death:
01/07/1916
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
18th Bn.
Panel Reference
Pier and Face 1 D 8 B and 8 C.
Memorial
THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
THISTLEWOOD, W M
Rank:
Lance Corporal
Service No:
1789
Date of Death:
26/04/1915
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
1st/6th Bn.
Grave Reference
V. A. 2.
Cemetery
RAILWAY DUGOUTS BURIAL GROUND
Additional Information:
THISTLEWOOD, HARRY
Rank:
Private
Service No:
201325
Date of Death:
21/08/1918
Age:
21
Regiment/Service:
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
13th Bn.
Grave Reference
VI. J. 5.
Cemetery
BUCQUOY ROAD CEMETERY, FICHEUX
Additional Information:
Son of Thomas E. and Elizabeth Thistlewood, of 10, Danube St., Liverpool.
I have had this information from Marie McQuade from Merseyside Role of Honour
Thanks for the link etc.
I don't think a memorial with only sixteen names could come from either a C.of E. or R.C. Church. That alone makes me suspect that it came from a non-conformist establishment.
Added to that J K Maddrell is commemorated on a memorial at Christ Church Free C.of E. Church, Tuebrook, and E K Fleming is buried in the non-conformist section of Toxteth Park Cemetery.
I'll check the original burial registers for Toxteth Park Cemetery which should give the name of the minister who attended E K Fleming's funeral and hopefully this will pinpoint the correct church.
Alternatively, if service records for any of the soldiers have survived they should give their religious denomination.
I'll let you know what I find out.
Best wishes
Marie McQuade
The first two names on the memorial are brothers (Edwin) Clarence P and Vivian M Adams.
Their parents hail from Salcombe Devon. Their father being a shipwright who we can presume moved to Liverpool to find work. They show on the 1911 census for Grinshill Street Liverpool. Clarence was born in Salcombe Devon, Vivian was born in Liverpool.
Marie McQuade from Merseyside Role of Honour has done sterling work on this and all credit must go to her. She is suggesting that the memorial may be from St Peter's Wesleyan Church, High Park Street, Liverpool 8. Apparently the church was converted to apartments in 2008.
I have contacted helpdesk@methodistchurch.org.uk and asked them to attempt to verify the details.
Further from Marie McQuade
I've been able to check out the original documents at Liverpool Archives.
Unfortunately, the booklet published on the occasion of the centenary of St. Peter's Wesleyan Church didn't contain a photograph or physical description of the war memorial. It did, however, confirm that Arthur Phillips was the minister from 1917 until 1920.
I now have a connection between Rev Arthur Phillips and four out of sixteen of the men named on the memorial.
After the war relatives of deceased soldiers would be sent a form that they needed to fill up with the names of the surviving relatives in order to ascertain who was entitled to any war medals. This form had to be signed by a minister or magistrate. In three cases Arthur Phillips, Wesleyan Minister, of 15 Kelvin Grove was the witness. The three men were W W Hall, J Eardley and W M Thistlewood.
The Toxteth Park burial register confirms that Arthur Phillips officiated at the funeral of E K Fleming.
Although this isn't proof I'm 99% sure this must be the correct church, particularly as it was closed so recently. Perhaps the developers would be able to provide more information - unless one of the staff nicked the memorial!! Or an update in the Liverpool Echo with the name of the probable church might catch the attention of former parishioners.
Marie
So there are two parts to my request.
Can anyone confirm where this memorial was originally raised?
Are any of the descendents of the men named contactable?
I would anticipate that the memorial would be handed over to whichever religious organisation raised it. As such any service of re-dedication would be much enhanced if members of the men’s families could be present although we are in the realms of the “Great Great Uncle or Grandfather”.
A lengthy request I know but any help would be gratefully received and clearly acknowledged.
Armchair