Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi everyone. This is a long standing but very interesting sounding piece of research by a friend of mine and a bit out of our usual range so I am beginning the post, with a request for any suggestions about where and which enquiries could be made regarding ABRAHAM ROBERTS. Here is what we have working towards the time period. I don’t believe we need any more recent research. Googling may find a very old post on the Ancestry and Rootschat forums (I think around 2009), thanks given to” Casalguidi” for the baptisms.

Abraham’s son John Roberts
1851 census HO107; Piece: 2322; Folio: 8; Page: 9
Bountcliffe, Kiln Yard, Morley, Yorkshire
James Scarth Head M 63 Farmer Morley, Yorkshire
Grace Wife M 50 West Ardsley, Yorkshire
Samuel Son U 19 Stoker Railway Morley, Yorkshire
James Son U 17 Labourer at Coal Pit “ “
Squire Son 14 “ “ “
Joseph Son 12 “ “ “
David Son 10 Errand Boy at Home “ “
John Roberts Son in Law Mar 29 Railway Miner Navie Woolwich, Kent
Emma Roberts daur Mar 21 Morley, Yorkshire
Abraham Roberts Son 1 Hipperholme, Yorkshire

Marriage found on Ancestry - see image below.
John, was married to Emma Scarth on Feb 7, 1848 in St. Peter's Church in Morley, Yorkshire
He was 26 years old, Bachelor, a miner, Father Abraham, a soldier
She was 18, a spinster, Father James, a clothier.

John died in the great coal mining disaster in Morley, Oct. 7, 1872. Newspaper articles give the information that he had three children. He certainly appears to have had two, and maybe three sons. The first, Abraham who may have died in infancy, subsequent to the 1851 census. I can't find the other. The surviving child's (the direct ancestor) name was John Major ROBERTS. As there appear to be no "Major" surnames on the Scarth side of the family, could his grandmother Alice’s maiden name have been “Major”?

Open minded as to whether this could be John in 1841
HO107; Piece: 1328; Book: 6; Civil Parish: Rotherham; County: Yorkshire; Enumeration District: 6; Folio: 18; Page: 2; Line: 1
Musbro Common, Kimberworth, Rotherham, Yorkshire
John Roberts 20 Stone Mason NO
Hannah 19 Y
Ann 6m Y

However I would think it would be John Roberts and Hannah Gill, whose marriage in Q3 1840 Doncaster is on familysearch, his father being Robert Roberts so I don’t think this discounts him in a prior marriage.

Baptisms believed to be John and his brother
Woolwich St Mary Magdalene Woolwich (the church apparently used by the soldiers stationed nearby):

Joseph (born 24 March) baptised 18 Apr 1824 son of Abraham & Alice ROBERTS, artillery barracks, gunner Royal Artillery

John (born 8 Jan) baptised 27 Jan 1822 son of Abraham & Alice ROBERTS, Red Lion Street, gunner Royal Artillery

Entries I have found for possible A Roberts
Regiment 42610 – Royal Artillery, Sappers and Miners
20th-43rd Foot – Non Commissioned Officers and Men Private 77897
Regiment 1690 - Cavalry, Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Foot Guards, 1st – 32nd Foot

Below is transcription, wrong image attached to the Ancestry entry.
Name: A Roberts
Campaign or Service: Battle of Waterloo
Service Date: 1815
Service Location: Belgium
Regiment or Unit Name: Machine Gun Corps
Regimental Number: 7814634

National Archives have details of an Abraham Roberts, born Hallington, Sussex who served in the 31st Foot Regiment and was discharged aged 32, but the documents relate to 1803-1819 so I don’t think this would be the one.

Comments re family legends of Wales and stonemason.
Wales had no national-type records of members of stonemasons guilds prior to 1800. She (library? museum? curator) was most kind and offered to look in local books but needed, of course, the area to be narrowed down somewhat. This was not pursued, as this could be a wild goose chase anyway--it's just family lore that the origins were in Wales anyway.

I read that prior to 1800, many Welsh did not yet use surnames. They simply took their father's given name and used it as a last name. (This was one reason that I pursued the DNA, before our last male Roberts of my generation's illness became incapacitating.) I also read that the Irish who joined the military in that era very typically assumed 'Roberts' as their last name--the article implied that they were 'on the run' from the law, if I remember correctly.

Comments re DNA
Family DNA shows a few fairly close matches in Yorkshire, Wales, and Scotland. None that I could see on the map from Ireland, but I haven't checked it recently and will. None of these seem to be Roberts surname though--a few with Reid (which I think is a sept of the Donnachaidh clan, as Roberts is), and a 'Chance' as well. Our Roberts is rather an orphan on the Roberts YDNA site, not matching well with any others of that name.

Quite a legend! I fear there is something odd about an entry above which includes both Waterloo and the Machine Gun Corps which existed only during WW1 ! But I see it is from A....y
There was another Abraham Roberts who won a VC, but I cannot see a link.
D

Thanks Daggers, the image that was attached to it related to about 1899 from memory, perhaps the whole thing was a total cock up by Ancestry.

All those entries were on Ancestry.

I haven't found an Abraham who won a VC, if anybody else can come up with the link please let us know.

I know we may not come up with anything online for this query but thought I'd post suggestions as I go along as they may help others in a similar search.

Reference numbers for the National Archives I have been told to search are WO97 and WO99.

WO97 narrowing the search to the full name "Abraham Roberts" and the date search between 1800 and 1841, thus widely covering the dates that the children were born in Woolwich (1822 and 1824) produces two results,
WO 97/502/18 More informationABRAHAM ROBERTS Born HALLINGTON, Sussex Served in 31st Foot Regiment Discharged aged 32 1803-1819
WO 97/876/32 More informationABRAHAM ROBERTS Born UPPINGHAM, Rutland Served in 76th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 41 1827-1850

The first I would discount since the baptisms give his occupation as soldier are outside this date, but I suspect the second might be worth checking out, however it does appear that this one was born in 1809 which makes it quite tight to have two children born in the early 1820's. There are options online for ordering and copying this document. For anybody performing a similar search The National Archives site advise that these should be available on Findmypast.

No results under WO99.

Heck the second entry is also no good, Abraham Roberts No. 659 First enlisted into the Army for the 76th Regiment of Foot on 15th October, 1827 ... aged Eighteen years, not that rules him out also.

Daggers could you please let me know where you found the records that show he may have won a VC?.

Muster Rolls and Pay Rolls are at Kew, hopefully these might be an option to search first hand at some future date.

If anybody has any other suggestions I would be very pleased to know them.

The Hannah Roberts in Mosborough is in Chester in 1851

Trafford Street Chester
Hannah Roberts married 29 lab's wife bn Mosbro Yorks
Ann Roberts daur 10 bn Mosbro
Gwen Ellen daur 8 bn Mosbro

Mosborough in a Yorskhire accent in Chester would come out as Mosbro it still does today!

Maybe John also joined the forces. There is a John Roberts born in Kent in the Chatham Barracks in 1841 and another , althought that one does say not born in the county, at Woolwich Dockyard in the Royal Artillery.

I see a visit to Kew coming along for your friend.

Sorry for delay and possible wild goose. General Sir Abraham Roberts served mostly in the British Army in India, 19th century. He and his son Frederick both won the Victoria Cross.
I think the family had Irish background like many senior army officers.
D

I have come across a couple of Major Generals in the records, difficult to pin them to ours of course. Wild goose chases are always filed as you never know where they just might link up. There is a thought that these Roberts could have been either Irish or Welsh.

Education Officer wrote: Mosborough in a Yorskhire accent in Chester would come out as Mosbro it still does today!

Definitely something else to keep on file thanks Hilary, although if the marriage I found happens to be correct then the father's name is wrong.

I have just joined this board after seeing the name Scarth mentioned in this thread. Emma Scarth is my 1st cousin 4x removed. I don't think we have been in touch before and I am in contact with a descendant of John Roberts and Emma.

Hi and welcome to the forum, sorry although I posted the information it was on behalf of a contact who is not a member of this forum.

It may be a good idea to add your post onto the original Rootschat one http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... msg2761327

Thank you for your reply. I have sent this information to the descendant of John and Emma who is in Canada. She will be interested in the Roberts information. Will send her the original as well. Must look round this forum more as my wife's after was born in Liverpool.

Thanks again