Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

With 11th November coming up I've been looking at my 'fallen' and while I've managed to locate their memorials I don't know where they were killed. Can any of our military experts help?
Where were the Royal Engineers fighting on 4th September 1916 and similarly the King's Liverpool Regiment on 4th October 1918?
Thanks in advance
Barbara

Barbara
Which memorials have you identified your men on?
The motto of the Royal Engineers [also Royal Artillery] is 'Ubique', Latin for everywhere! They really were all over the place in a huge variety of roles. We would need more clues to be able to help.
The King's Regiment had over 20 Battalions, each with a nominal 1000 men or so at full strength. Most served in France and Flanders but if you can produce anything like names, initials and other clues from medals or documents it will be a start. Medals have name, rank, number and an abbreviation of the unit on the rim or reverse.
This War Graves Commission website will give you places of burial or commemoration, but common names are not easily identified:
http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp
There is also an online version of 'Soldiers Died in the Great War' on one of the subscription sites, which may help as it gives place of birth and place of enlistment.
Come back when you are stuck.
D

Hi Daggers
I have William A Barker, 96th Field Company, Royal Engineers, commemorated on the Loos Memorial - born Liverpool 1894 and William Carter buried in the Ribecourt Railway cemetery - born Hanley, Staffordshire 1875. Willam Barker was my great uncle and Wiliam Carter was my uncle's grandfather
Thanks for your interest
Barbara

Barbara
Good news and not so good.
There is free access to Ancestry's military records this week, and they include two sets of records for your William A. Barker, almost identical but with one or two differences. I have not been able to download them but have made some notes which I will email to you if you send me a pm with your e-address. If you can access Ancestry you will be able to see both sets free, this week. Look under UK military records - ignore the pension records as neither of your men survived to qualify, and use the regimental number shown on the CWGC record. His Medal Index Card shows he earned the Victory and British War Medals, which should have been sent to his next of kin [father], but not the 1914/15 Star as he reached France only in 1916. I cannot help with unit details, as I am not familiar with the RE set-up, but if you look at the Great War Forum or the Long Long Trail websites, you might be able to get hold of more experts and can read more background.

I could not find the papers of Wm Carter, which is not surprising, as 2/3 of them were destroyed in the WW2 blitz. However, his medal index card shows that he probably served in the 11th Battalion of the King's before transferring to the 13th. He entered France on 19 May 1915 [the 13th Bn did not arrive until 27 Sept], and was entitled to the three war medals: 1914/15 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal, which should have been sent to his next of kin.
He was with 13th Bn when he died, and the regimental histories or war diary might have clues about the actions around the date of his death. That probably involved the operations called The Breaking of the Hindenburg Line, but I am getting out of my depth here. Some better-informed member might chip in with more...
D

Soldiers Died tells us that William Carter was Killed in Action (as opposed to Died of WOunds, Died, etc.) on 4th October 1918.

He was born in Hanley, enlisted at Seaforth and Resided in Liverpool.

I have the War Diary for the Battalion on that date at home (in work at the mo), so if you can hang on until tonight, I will have a read and find out what they were up to at that time.

His service papers have survived and are available via Ancestry

QUOTE:Some better-informed member...
And he duly appeared! Thanks, Stephen!
D

A bit more, mostly from the Long, Long Trail site [which will also give details of what made up a Field Company, RE]:
96th was part of the 3rd wave of Kitchener's New Army and from January 1915 was in 20th Division. This formation, in Sept 1916 was in the Battle of Guillemont, 3-6 September, one phase of the Battles of the Somme.
Googling any of these terms will give lots of info.
D

Hi Richard

A few key snippets from the service records......

Aged 33 at attestation on 28th August 1914, he was a General Labourer. Home address was 330, Longmoor Lane, Fazackerley, Liverpool. Wife Nellie (Ellen), nee Heaford(?), married on 09/11/1896. Nellie’s address later shown as 430, Longmoor Lane.

Daughters Nellie (29/05/1903) and Lilian (24/02/1910).

To France 18/05/1915 (landed next day, as previously stated).

Some information on the Bn can be found by looking at Francis Brookes on my website at http://www.prescot-rollofhonour.info

Although Brookes died on 31/08/18, it's perhaps safe to assume that William Carter would have been involved in the same actions.

Many thanks Daggers and Stephen for all the help and information.
I did find William Barker's record on Ancestry but didn't know he was entittled to any medals. There is a sad little letter from his father to the War Office about William's medals and effects which prompted the rather unfeeling reply 'No medals, no effects'
The information on William Carter has solved a problem I had with the birth of Nellie Carter - I had been looking much later for her. You are right, Stephen, his wife was Ellen Heaford.
Thank you both very much once again. I'll be following up all the leads you've given me. One of these days I'm going to make a trip to Loos and find Willie Barker's name!
Best wishes
Barbara

Barbara
The medals - I think that form referred to medals already awarded which might have been carried with him, not those to which he became entitled by service, and which would not have been available at the time of his death.
I am sending a PM with other snippets for you.
D

Looking through both the history and the diary, there is no reference to any actions on the 4th October 1918, which could mean that William was a victim of shelling. SDGW tells his that he was KIA and not DoW, which probably discounts him being wounded a few days earlier. Seems strange that there are no casualties mentioned in the diary…….

Anyway, here are the details going back to 27th September, which hopefully will help to inform you.

27/09/1918

“B” Coy met with little resistance on their portion of the 1st objective. During the long interval between this attack and the attack on STATION AVENUE, “C” Coy re-organised and called 1 platoon of “A” Coy into line with them.

On re-attacking the two saps and Sunken Road, our barrage although directed against BILHELM TRENCH succeeded in intimidating the German Machine Gunners on the Western edge of the Sunken Road who ran down the dugouts and the saps were now easily stormed. Rifle Grenadiers co-operating. In the Sunken Road the nest of dugouts were found full of Germans in all some 200. They readily surrendered and the attack went forward smoothly receiving well timed reinforcements from the supporting companies. The Division on our right did not hug their barrage but followed some distance behind their tanks. This resulted in several isolated hostile M.G. posts between their tanks and infantry shooting men of “A” and “C” Coys in the back.

The line was again held up about 50 yards short of STATION AVENUE, the Final Objective, where a few Machine Guns were still holding out. The remaining platoons of “A” Coy now merged into a firing line and swept it forward on to its final objective. “D” Coy’s attack on the final objective was carried out with 2 platoons in front line and 2 platoons in file moving along GRAND RAVINE. These 2 platoons were completely concealed from view and on several occasions captured hostile Machine Guns in rear who were opposing the advance of the 2 platoons in front line. This means of progress proved most satisfactory and STATION AVENUE was captured without heavy casualties in this Coy.

“B” Coy was not called on to reinforce but supported the other 3 companies right up to the final objective. This company on one occasion seeing hostile snipers on the high ground sniping at our advancing Companies silenced them with long range Lewis Gun fire.

Consolidation and reorganisation in depth was carried out.

About 600 prisoners and 100 Machine Guns and Automatic Rifles were captured. Casualties – 5 officers and 125 other ranks.

28/09/1918

On being withdrawn the battalion spent the time in cleaning up and reorganisation.

29/09/1918

Reorganisation, etc. carried on

30/09/1918

Ditto

The Commanding Officer is pleased to announce that during the month 5 Bars to the MILITARY MEDAL & 60 MILITARY MEDALS have been awarded to WO’s, NCO’s and Men of the Battalion

01/10/1918 RIBECOURT

Reorganisation etc. carried on

02/10/1918

Smartening up parades – Close Order Drill, etc.

03/10/1918

Ditto

04/10/1918

Ditto. Firing practice on range

05/10/1918

Ditto. Sports

06/10/1918

Divine Services. In the afternoon a Football Match was played versus 4th Royal Fusiliers, 13th King’s winning 6 – 0.

07/10/1918

Officers reconnoitred approaches to RUMILLY. In the evening the Battalion moved up to intermediate area preparatory to moving up the line. About 11 p.m. the Battalion proceeded to assembly positions East of RUMILLY.


That's verbatim from the diary and the regimental history simply summaries the above. So they were withdrawn from the line on 28/09 until 07/10. Clearly they were in the vicinity of RIBECOURT, which is where Wm Carter is buried, but it's hard to tell from this narrative what happened to him.

I would suggest local newspapers for anything further.

Thanks so much to our Military guys, don't know what we'd do without your help sometimes.

Barbara
I've just sent you by email photos of Barker's inscription and a view of the Loos Memorial area, Carter's headstone and the Ribecourt cemetery, plus parts of the Town Hall panels on which their names appear.
The first four are thanks to 'British War Graves'.
Best wishes
Daggers

As Mary says, thank you both very much for sharing your knowledge and resources, they are very much appreciated.
It seems tragic that William Carter appears to have died after the bulk of the fighting was over, leaving his wife and two little girls. My uncle has some letters that William sent home in the winter and spring of 1917-18 saying how much he is looking forward to seeing them again soon. Presumably he never saw them again. Not an uncommon story but sad nevertheless.
Best wishes
Barbara

Being curious as to the lack of casualties mentioned in the diary, I have checked further and found that casualties on other days don’t appear in the diary. Looking at the same period as above, all of the men below are part of the 13th Bn.

27/09/1918 – 31 men died – this is referenced in the diary entry for the day (part of the 130 casualties)
28/09/1918 – 1 man died ( J Warburton)
29/09/1918 – No casualties
30/09/1918 – 1 man died (L L Miller)
01/10/1918 – 1 man died (G R Burrows)
02/10/1918 – No casualties
03/10/1918 – 2 men died (G Hughes and J Lamb, now resting adjacent to each other in B1 and B2 at Ribecourt)
04/10/1918 – 2 men died (W Carter and L Dean, now resting adjacent to each other in B17 and B16 at Ribecourt)
05/10/1918 - No casualties
06/10/1918 – No casualties
07/10/1918 – I man died (R Roffey)

Other Ranks usually don’t get a mention by name in the diaries, but it is usually recorded in the diary how many men became casualties each day.