Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

An Observation.

The other day I was reading a thread on here. The Opening Poster (OP) had put some information up, others presented findings, the OP responded, and so the cycle repeated. Nothing unusual in that. Unfortunately the problem was not solved. I had a go myself, doing some digging in a half hour or so I had spare in the middle of the proceedings, only to find that after maybe 15 minutes of searching that the information I had found was already present on a directly related post on Rootschat by the same user. Not their fault, but knowing that would of been very useful and it would of completely changed my approach. It would of also of enabled me to spend my time trying to find something that was unknown for that user, rather than something already known.

Also, some problems survive the onslaught of some very knowledgeable forum members with all kinds of resources to hand. And it's these that I have most in mind here. At the end of a first round of investigation problems such as these could be put up in a dedicated forum. And especially for those of us who can't be around to read the forum all the time, but like to sit down with something to chew over with a cup of tea and a freshly baked scone.

The aim of the new forum.

To collect together the pertinant information to help solve longstanding problems, in a more easily read form, and also make it easier for people who could maybe spend 30 minutes here and there to spend that time most effectively.

How I envisage it to work / My proposal.

Call the new forum something like 'Unsolved mysteries'. Put an announcement/sticky at the top of it as to how its mechanics need to work. ie one thread per problem and the opening post within that thread has to contain the known pertinent details for it. Also, a clear-cut question needs to be posed as to what they are seeking. The thread title needs to be descriptive and not something like 'help me please!!'.

N.B. Here is the most important aspect of it; The opening post needs to be constantly updated by the OP as new things come to light to enable other people to spend their time most effectively. Contributers to the thread could delete their contributions as they were taken into account by the OP. The OP would continue to edit and refine the OP to save the time of other people, after all they are the expert on their particular problem. Information forgotten in the OP would become apparent/be quickly added as the thread ran.

After a satisfactory conclusion the thread could be marked as such in its title, or maybe deleted entirely.

What are your thoughts?

If a bit further search is made then it will be found that this has been suggested previously and after the first one or two onslaughts of posts appeared to die off so the matter was left that everybody would continue to jump in as they were able and often a huge amount of research was done and put forward.

Posters are always requested to cross reference posts on other forums and if we come across them that haven't been, this is usually brought to our attention and cross referenced as it is not good to duplicate research.

Please use this post if anybody has any more suggestions.

I think the current set up is okay as it is the only thing I think we need to watch is that the first reply to the enquirer asks the right questions and checks to see if the same or a similar enquiry has been posted before on this or another forum.

The technical ability and the research experience of some enquirers may be limited so I don't think we should ask for too much when they make their first post on the forum.

Blue

Blue70 wrote: The technical ability and the research experience of some enquirers may be limited so I don't think we should ask for too much when they make their first post on the forum.
Blue

I quite agree. Ease of use is important and it wouldn't suit everybody. I was thinking more of the problems that have survived initial interrogation in the usual way and may have been around for a while. Like probably many people here, I have one or two unsolved mysteries that have had a lot of effort thrown at them. But with wider exposure I would expect that somebody somewhere may be able to shed more light on them. And it would seem unfair to expect people to help when you already know quite a bit about it. The group is a powerful tool, especially when everybody has their own and varied ways of solving things.

MaryA wrote:If a bit further search is made then it will be found that this has been suggested previously and after the first one or two onslaughts of posts appeared to die off so the matter was left that everybody would continue to jump in as they were able and often a huge amount of research was done and put forward.

Posters are always requested to cross reference posts on other forums and if we come across them that haven't been, this is usually brought to our attention and cross referenced as it is not good to duplicate research.

Please use this post if anybody has any more suggestions.

Apologies for missing that one if it's been suggested before.
I think that if previous posts, where the intial post was updated to assist others searching, was then left to flounder, well then that to me would convey the authors lack of interest perhaps. That's fine, as personally I'd be more interested in helping those that have put some effort in. If the posts have died off to the thread and that thread has been properly responded to and maintained then by all means let it stay up there. A group of slower moving unsolved stuff would build up that somebody like me could chip away away at Because usually by the time I get to see a query you've all very efficiently devoured the main course, cleared pudding and even done the washing up!

As a result of your post there may well be a renewed interest in opening up some of the members "Cold Cases" and fresh eyes are always welcome.

It is sadly an all too often occurrence when the opposite happens, when a new member posts a query, the crew jump in with a lot of research - good stuff being brought in - and the original poster doesn't return.

Swings and roundabouts I'm afraid.

Posters sometimes discuss their brickwalls in "Off Topic".

Blue

MaryA wrote:As a result of your post there may well be a renewed interest in opening up some of the members "Cold Cases" and fresh eyes are always welcome.

I'm glad I may of provoked something positive. Fresh eyes are always good, and that's not to dismiss all previous efforts. People have done it for me and sometimes, putting stuff up has brought a break through.

MaryA wrote: It is sadly an all too often occurrence when the opposite happens, when a new member posts a query, the crew jump in with a lot of research - good stuff being brought in - and the original poster doesn't return.

I think its that that is one of my main concerns, and I was wondering how to maybe help people with it. To make it easier for those with time and resources to devote, and more balanced for all.
I'm relatively new to this particular group but not new to others or the net. It quickly became apparent that there's a small core of people that give these forums a lot of support. It seems a shame that such efforts are sometimes diluted.
So I suppose what I'm also saying is that if people are willing to properly lay out what they know and not waste my time then sometimes I can produce the unexpected.
Don't forget, that by rounding up a lot of what you know about something and putting it all in the same place in text format makes it eminently searcheable. The solution may find you. This forum is well indexed by google.
MaryA, you may well of just hit on an idea there by saying 'members cold cases'. Why not make such an area members only? It may encourage group support. It would also encourage each thread to be looked after I feel.

Blue70 wrote:Posters sometimes discuss their brickwalls in "Off Topic".

Blue

I think you'd have to appreciate the group workings more to know that. Usually I wouldn't looked at off topic, as its......'off topic'

The Off Topic section and its predecessor were often used for general discussion about progress in research without making a specific request for help. It can be a good place to discuss problems or genealogical resources. Some brickwalls are the result of records not being available online or transcription errors.

Blue

Perhaps we should explain the historical set up of the forum. Under the previous administration we had a smaller board for each of the areas covered by the Society - ie Liverpool, Warrington, Southport, Skelmersdale, Widnes and leigh. Apart from Liverpool, the other boards were quiet and many members, new and old, were reluctant to post on the other locations as they feared their messages would be overlooked.

After discussion with some of the regular posters, it was decided to amalgamate requests for help that came under the umbrella of the "West Derby Hundred" which is primarily our geographical area of research, however we did not wish to exclude other areas if we could help so also created the "Other Areas", covering other genealogy research subjects as well as other geographical areas, and also "Military" as these were popular subjects and some of our forum members had some specific expertise they were able to give - for which we were very thankful, after all we are not a large forum as some others are.

The subject of Cold Cases was raised and we did start them off, some with good results, others still without conclusion, but as you say, they are well found by google indexing. It would be the responsibility of the poster to head up their message appropriately, and lay out the sometimes huge amount of evidence already collected in a logical and easily accessible manner so as to avoid duplication.

I do believe that if Cold Cases have ended up in the Off Topic forum it is because they have been brought about as a result of an off topic discussion rather than an intentional placement.

Peetee wrote: 'members cold cases'.

Well what makes a query a cold case? A new forum member, who may even be relatively new to research, may consider they have covered all angles when in reality they have barely touched the surface, many resources being available which they hadn't considered and their quest could be put to bed more speedily than expected, not a subject for a cold case although they may think so. The duplication of research, which may have taken place either on another forum, or even years ago, plus the illogical manner of laying out their evidence is something we see only too often on here, causing confusion, often a sign of a novice with not a lot of idea of how to set out their research in a manner easily followed by others.

I believe anybody should be able to request our assistance if it is possible for us to produce results for them, great, however if their post is mistakenly headed it will be changed to something more appropriate - how many times have we seen "Help - lost grandad!" which means absolutely nothing. So somebody's "brick wall" or "cold case" may not be agreed with by others.

Peetee wrote:Why not make such an area members only?

Our regular Society and Forum Members do know that they may post their "Cold Cases" and indeed some be working on preparing the background for quite some time before putting their evidence forward.

http://www.forum.liverpool-genealogy.or ... =2&t=12073
I think the answer lies in the roots of our Society. We are all researching, whether new to this or more experienced. We don't wish to preclude those seeking their ancestry, after all who knows who we will come across, so many times has a wonderful reunion resulted from another seeker stumbling across one of our posts, however, as you all know this forum is ultimately "members only" as each successful forum member, after a period of time, is encouraged to join the Society.

Excellent Mary....Couldnt have put it any better Always help on this forum you just have to ask and it shall be received...Thank you

Ann

I hope we will always be forthcoming.

Well said Mary.

I think everyone here is always happy to help. If someone has found new information to do with an old post they can always refind their old post and activate it again or start again clearly stating what they know and what they are trying to find.

I'm sure some here will remember searching for my elusive grandmother. She's still missing!!!

Education Officer wrote:Well said Mary.
I'm sure some here will remember searching for my elusive grandmother. She's still missing!!!

I think my father's 'vanished' uncle Thomas Fry ran away with her!

Don't fix what's not broke.

I very often look at old posts.. like Ellen Cahill.. also remember a chap that was into aircraft(Duxford)we never got to the bottom of that one. Some will never be found. Not for the want of trying. Members give their all on here.

Most days I have some time to give ( willingly) this week, half term.. g.sons. I say, "Not too much internet".. they say, "Well you do Nana, looking for rellies".

Edit: Chap was from Elvington, North Yorks(can't tell my a... from my Elvington)

Grayx

Blue70 wrote:The Off Topic section and its predecessor were often used for general discussion about progress in research without making a specific request for help. It can be a good place to discuss problems or genealogical resources. Some brickwalls are the result of records not being available online or transcription errors.

Blue

That's great if you know that about the forum, but if you're new to it and having seen a number of other forums, then off topic would mean it contained discussions that were unrelated to genealogy.

Blue70 wrote: Some brickwalls are the result of records not being available online or transcription errors.
Blue

I bet that happens a lot. I've had a handful myself. Probably one of the areas that I could maybe help, but being able to help often depends on being able to see the surrounding information easily.

Most people get used to the set up of the forum from reading and posting on a regular basis and get into the habit of posting in the sections that are more appropriate to their posts. Threads can always be moved so there's no pressure on anyone to make sure they post in the most appropriate section.

Blue

MaryA wrote:Perhaps we should explain the historical set up of the forum. Under the previous administration we had a smaller board for each of the areas covered by the Society - ie Liverpool, Warrington, Southport, Skelmersdale, Widnes and leigh. Apart from Liverpool, the other boards were quiet and many members, new and old, were reluctant to post on the other locations as they feared their messages would be overlooked.

Exactly the same dilemna I faced when trying to decide where to actually place this thread. I read all the titles of the forums and then stuck it in the 'other areas' one. Re the posts migrating towards one place; you see much the same behaviour in other groups and I fully understand and sympathise with why they do it. I'd do the same.

MaryA wrote: After discussion with some of the regular posters, it was decided to amalgamate requests for help that came under the umbrella of the "West Derby Hundred" which is primarily our geographical area of research, however we did not wish to exclude other areas if we could help so also created the "Other Areas", covering other genealogy research subjects as well as other geographical areas, and also "Military" as these were popular subjects and some of our forum members had some specific expertise they were able to give - for which we were very thankful, after all we are not a large forum as some others are.

I think that works very well. It's also easy to figure out if you're new to it.

MaryA wrote: The subject of Cold Cases was raised and we did start them off, some with good results, others still without conclusion, but as you say, they are well found by google indexing. It would be the responsibility of the poster to head up their message appropriately, and lay out the sometimes huge amount of evidence already collected in a logical and easily accessible manner so as to avoid duplication.

I do believe that if Cold Cases have ended up in the Off Topic forum it is because they have been brought about as a result of an off topic discussion rather than an intentional placement.

And I think at times it may mean the placing of a lot of evidence. But there's a magnification effect to be had. Whilst it may mean, in some instances, quite a lot of stuff to be regurgitated, think of how many eyes would then be easily trained upon it? Its also easier for the author to round up their own stuff and assemble it. So they may think .........well there's a couple of threads on here, and one on Rootschat.....If I was to copy and paste them all together....twiddle it round a bit to get rid of some of the duplication, it would then form a fair synopsis of the evidence to the problem at hand. It's a lot easier for the author to do that than somebody fresh to it. Plus it may mean that 10 people don't do all that, but jump straight into looking for new stuff.

MaryA wrote: Well what makes a query a cold case? A new forum member, who may even be relatively new to research, may consider they have covered all angles when in reality they have barely touched the surface, many resources being available which they hadn't considered and their quest could be put to bed more speedily than expected, not a subject for a cold case although they may think so. The duplication of research, which may have taken place either on another forum, or even years ago, plus the illogical manner of laying out their evidence is something we see only too often on here, causing confusion, often a sign of a novice with not a lot of idea of how to set out their research in a manner easily followed by others.

I believe anybody should be able to request our assistance if it is possible for us to produce results for them, great, however if their post is mistakenly headed it will be changed to something more appropriate - how many times have we seen "Help - lost grandad!" which means absolutely nothing. So somebody's "brick wall" or "cold case" may not be agreed with by others.

Well said. I think a cold case is one thats been gone over and has withstood attack on the regular forum perhaps, especially by the regulars. It's like you needed a voting system....more than 5 nominations and you're into the cold case hall of fame. I think the two existing forums 'liverpool & SW' and 'other areas' are fine and should remain the mainstay ones. They seem to work well. And by them remaining so I think that serves the important function of not precluding anybody.
You raise an important point of; how do you decide 'what is' and 'what isnt' a cold case and also to what surrounding evidence is needed.
Maybe the latter is easier to answer. If the thread owner looks after the thread and updates the OP then I think what 'surrounding evidence' is posted would look after itself. Deficiencies would correct themsleves as questions were asked and the updating would reduce duplication of effort.

MaryA wrote: Our regular Society and Forum Members do know that they may post their "Cold Cases" and indeed some be working on preparing the background for quite some time before putting their evidence forward.

Which in many ways is something similar to what I was suggesting, just doing it in a more 'live' way. And with some way of easily identifying which were deemed cold cases, beit a separate forum or perhaps a some other means of flagging it. Mind you then if if the cold case becomes live....what happens then!

MaryA wrote: http://www.forum.liverpool-genealogy.or ... =2&t=12073
I think the answer lies in the roots of our Society. We are all researching, whether new to this or more experienced. We don't wish to preclude those seeking their ancestry, after all who knows who we will come across, so many times has a wonderful reunion resulted from another seeker stumbling across one of our posts, however, as you all know this forum is ultimately "members only" as each successful forum member, after a period of time, is encouraged to join the Society.

I wouldn't want to preclude anybody. My suggestion of a members only area was aimed at financial support for the group and maybe stimulating folk to perhaps devote more effort to it, as they sometimes do having to have paid for something. That suggestion was also partly spurred on by recently coming across the once wonderful website toxteth.net and the sad message that it could no longer be supported as a 'free' site. Everything worthwhile needs to pull support from somewhere.

MaryA wrote: Our regular Society and Forum Members do know that they may post their "Cold Cases" and indeed some be working on preparing the background for quite some time before putting their evidence forward.

Which in many ways is something similar to what I was suggesting, just doing it in a more 'live' way.

Education Officer wrote: I'm sure some here will remember searching for my elusive grandmother. She's still missing!!!

dickiesam wrote: I think my father's 'vanished' uncle Thomas Fry ran away with her!

There's two right there. Now you're two of the most regular regulars from what I've seen. If these two missing people have remained so despite best efforts of those on here then I'd say they were cold cases good and proper.

But consider this. Before you've just mentioned them I didn't know about them. So how do you bring them to attention of the rest of the world in an easy way? How do you flag them as such with out having insider knowledge of the group? Insider knowledge which takes time to build up. I'd guess that for every one on here that has reasonable time to devote to the group , there's maybe 10-100 that simply dip in and out. But of that 10-100 (and I'd be one of them) how many would lend some of their time to a problem that they could more easily see? It's the difference between a scattered conversation that's hard to get into and a concise page full of reading with a question or two at the bottom.

I'm always looking for things that will multiply effort. It often requires a bit of organisation and coordination. But when it works it is sometimes amazing what happens.

Now, to the two missing people above, add to that a third person; The missing person that made me think 'how do you help somebody?'...in fact......'how do you help may people with similar problems?' How, with a bit of organisation do you help others to focus on a problem with minimal effort? That person was i think erikas missing grandfather. That really made me think. Somebody missing, who in genealogical terms isn't that far away but has survived by some accounts a lot of effort to find them. How do you solve that?

One way is to lay out the information to enable others that may search in different ways to chip in.

I'm glad this thread hasn't died. When I saw it had been relocated to 'off topic' I thought that that was that. But now Blue70 has explained what off topic gets used for, that makes a lot more sense.

Thankyou to everybody who's chipped in.