Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi, I am looking for help with my Irish ancestors. I am using ancestry and a few free sites but no luck.

The story passed down the generations in my family is as follows.
Thomas Shannon born in 1844 in the parish of Castlerae in the county of Roscommon. He came to Liverpool to look for his father John Shannon born about 1825, who had left the family some years earlier.
He found him running a shoe repair shop in Brownlow hill Liverpool, his father had set up a new family, his new wife was named Elizabeth and they had a son/stepson named John.
Thomas was 17 years old at the time, and he set about his father, it was then told there was a great hue and cry all over Brownlow hill, Thomas was caught and given the choice of facing the magistrate or taken the queens shilling (to serve in the army) which he did and was mustered at Liverpool on the 2/8/1861 to serve 22 years.
From this point on we have good records of Thomas Shannon. And the 1881 census for John Shannon But none from Ireland.

Hope you can help.

Hi Adam welcome aboard.
I'm sure our crew will be able to help you with your search.
Good story about Thomas!!

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Although you may get some advice from our crew here about Ireland, you may get more information if you posted on a specific board for the County, such as Rootschat.

Regarding the skirmish in Brownlow Hill, have you tried the online newspapers which may have reported the fight?

MaryA wrote:Hi and welcome to the forum.

Although you may get some advice from our crew here about Ireland, you may get more information if you posted on a specific board for the County, such as Rootschat.

Regarding the skirmish in Brownlow Hill, have you tried the online newspapers which may have reported the fight?

Hi Mary Thanks for the fast reply and information. Yes I have tried the online newspapers and no luck, I have not used Rootschat before, I will check it out. Many thanks for your help.
Adam

Hello Adam,
Can you confirm if this is John Shannon and his 'Liverpool' family in 1861?

RG09 - Piece: 2684 - Folio: 21 - Page: 36
Detail removed as being incorrect.

And in 1871...?
RG10 - Piece: 3768 - Folio: 140 - Page: 21
Address: 8 House, Court, Banastre Street, Liverpool.
SHANNON, John - Head - 46 1825 Shoemaker - Roscommon, Ireland
SHANNON, Eliz - Wife - 43 1828 Dublin, Ireland
SHERLOCK, John - Servant - u/m - 40 1831 - Shoemaker - Co Meath, Ireland

Edited to change John Sherlock's origin fro Coalport to Co Meath.

Hi Dickiesam

We have John Shannon the shoemaker in 1881 census, but not in the 1871, many thanks for that. We know he was a shoemaker as my aunt who died this year age 93, had passed the story on to us, one of many. She was blind but had an amazing memory and never proved wrong, she could recall the whole family tree from memory when I had to check it on paper.
Thomas Shannon was her grandfather and my Gt grandfather.
Once again many thanks for the help.

Adam

Sorry forgot to add I can not confirm the 1861 census, as Thomas must have arrived on the scene about 1861, and it was said his trade was a shoemaker.

Hi Adam,
On reflection you should discount that 1861 census I posted, if only because of the several children in the household, all born in Liverpool from 1851 onwards. So I have removed it as misleading.

I did find John and Elizabeth in 1881...
RG11 - Piece: 3606 - Folio: 90 - Page: 18
Address: 4 House, 4 Court, Bannastre St, Liverpool
SHANNON, John - Head - Married - 56 - 1825 - Shoe Maker - Ireland
SHANNON, Elizabeth - Wife - 50 - 1831 - Ireland

Fortunately the 1871 gives more details of their origins, County Roscommon and Dublin respectively. But, unfortunately, there appears to be no children from this 'marriage' which would give us Elizabeth's maiden name. While we have come across bigamous RC marriages it would be unusual nevertheless. And in fact for C of I as well for that matter. The likelihood is that they didn't marry because divorce was next to impossible for the working class.

MaryA's suggestion to head for Rootschat and a specific board for County Roscommon is a sound one. A quick look at the Griffiths Valuation gave 12 hits for a John Shannon in Roscommon, but occupations aren't listed.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith- ... arishname=

The Irish Family History Foundation http://www.rootsireland.ie/ gave no hits for a baptism abt 1844 in Roscommon for Thomas Shannon. Do his Army papers give a more precise birthplace such as a town or parish?

In the 1871 John Sherlock gives his place of birth as....



I originally thought it looked like Coalport, but there isn't one in Ireland. Can any untangle it? Or confirm my second thought of Co Meath?

Co. Meath has my vote.

MaryA wrote:Co. Meath has my vote.

On the census summary form it had me really puzzled. Then I posted it and it leapt out at me.

Adam! Do you have Thomas Shannon with his wife in any England census. If yes, can you tell us where they are please? Ideally with the census page reference like the 1881 RG11 - Piece: 3606 - Folio: 90 - Page: 18. For 1991 it will begin with RG 12, 1901 with RG13 and 1911 with RG14. Although for the latter his age, wife's age and name and their location would suffice.

Hi Dickiesam
I do not have the orginal Thomas Shannon army records, the information passed to me The family came from Castlerae Roscommon, I do have his regiment, army number, posting, demob,ect.
At the moment I am working my way around Rootschat, it looks a good site.

I am having a problem finding John Shannon on the 1871 census you passed me. I have tried with just the piece, folio, page, numbers, and kept adding the family but no luck.
I will have a fresh start tomorrow.
Once again thanks a lot
Adam.

I am having a problem finding John Shannon on the 1871 census you passed me. I have tried with just the piece, folio, page, numbers, and kept adding the family but no luck.
I will have a fresh start tomorrow.
Once again thanks a lot
Adam.

What site are you using for the 1871 census?

And do you have Thomas in England after 1861? When and where did he marry?
Do you have the name of his father's deserted wife and of any of Thomas' siblings?

The 1881 cenus 2g 11 piece 3606, folio,90, page 18.
Also John Shannon had a son/stepson with his new wife? named John Shannon. Thomas Shannon was having a pint while waiting to catch his train to Portsmouth, to join his regiment and met his half brother John.
Mary has asked for the census records for Thomas, which I will have to dig out.
Thanks again for your help
Adam

Hi Dickiesam,Mary
First off I have his discharge certificate. It states born in the parish of Castlerae.
Thomas Shannon age 25, married Mary Foundly age 19, 15/02/1870. Portsea Island Southamton.

Thomas Shannon 1871 census Institution 5, Schedule 15, Piece 890, Folio 129, page 2.
Thomas Shannon 1881 census Piece 1772, Folio 61, Page 14, South Shoebury Kent.

Thomas was discharged 5/3/1883 and returned to Ireland and lived in the Parish of Rathmines near Dublin.

The 1891 census he is living in 34 Horby street Liverpool, and his wife Mary died in 1893
Thomas in the 1901 census is living with his eldest daughter Alice Shannon
(my grandmother)
Thomas died of cancer of the pancreas 17/11/1912
Thomas and Marys chidren
Alice Bridget Shannon born 13/07/1881.
Thomas Shannon born 1871.
Kate Shannon born 1872.
Andy Shannon born 1876.
Pat Shannon born 1887.
Charlie Shannon born 1879.
Jack Shannon born 1889.

Adam

Thomas Shannon

Adam wrote:Hi Dickiesam,Mary
First off I have his discharge certificate. It states born in the parish of Castlerae.
Thomas Shannon age 25, married Mary Foundly age 19, 15/02/1870. Portsea Island Southamton.

Thomas Shannon 1871 census Institution 5, Schedule 15, Piece 890, Folio 129, page 2.
Thomas Shannon 1881 census Piece 1772, Folio 61, Page 14, South Shoebury Kent.

Thomas was discharged 5/3/1883 and returned to Ireland and lived in the Parish of Rathmines near Dublin.

The 1891 census he is living in 34 Horby street Liverpool, and his wife Mary died in 1893
Thomas in the 1901 census is living with his eldest daughter Alice Shannon
(my grandmother)
Thomas died of cancer of the pancreas 17/11/1912
Thomas and Marys chidren
Alice Bridget Shannon born 13/07/1881.
Thomas Shannon born 1871.
Kate Shannon born 1872.
Andy Shannon born 1876.
Pat Shannon born 1887.
Charlie Shannon born 1879.
Jack Shannon born 1889.

I do not have any information about Thomas Shannon's early life in Ireland,
mother siblings ect.

Thanks again Adam

The census entries for Thomas show he was a gunner in the Royal Garrison Artillery. I would have expected him to be discharged to pension for that length of service but I can't find him doing that on the available sites on the Internet. They may not have done all the available records. However I would expect his Army Papers to be at the National Archives at Kew.

I'm also surprised there is no mention of his fight in the newspaper. I would expect John to be in Liverpool in 1861 when the alleged fight took place as it appears that from what you have written that the fight was some years after John had left the family home. Then there's the mystery son/stepson John where's he in a census?

Education Officer wrote:The census entries for Thomas show he was a gunner in the Royal Garrison Artillery. I would have expected him to be discharged to pension for that length of service but I can't find him doing that on the available sites on the Internet. They may not have done all the available records. However I would expect his Army Papers to be at the National Archives at Kew.

I'm also surprised there is no mention of his fight in the newspaper. I would expect John to be in Liverpool in 1861 when the alleged fight took place as it appears that from what you have written that the fight was some years after John had left the family home. Then there's the mystery son/stepson John where's he in a census?

Hi Hilary
Thomas served 20 years and 174 days, but it states 21 years and 33 days reckon towards his pension, and no service abroad.
I have a copy of his army form B128 discharge certificate.
I can only quote the tale as passed down through generations, and I know the tales can change from the orginal, but every tale from the family I have researched in the past, has been pretty accurate. I have searched the papers online knowing not every problem in Liverpool is always reported but hoping it would.
The mystery stepson/son may not have been in the house at the 1861 census which I have had in the past.
The whole story is part fact with his army sevice, and the rest is a mystrey untill we learn more about Thomas's past.

I think this may be a brick wall in our family.
Many thanks Adam.

Hi Adam,
There is always some truth in family stories but they are rarely 100% factual. They get changed to suit the teller or the circumstances, or to avoid embarrassment. Most of us will have a couple of family tales that have become 'warped' over time and telling.

The 1871 census shows a son in the household aged 10...
RG10 - Piece: 890 - Folio: 129 - Page: 2
Address: Parrock Street, Milton, Gravesend, Kent.
SHANNON, Thos Head 27 1844 Gunner, Royal Artillery - Ireland
SHANNON, Mary Jane Wife 20 1851 - Manchester, Lancashire
SHANNON, John Thomas Son 10 1861 - Landport, Hampshire.

There is an error in the age for the son. This is the only such named birth in Hampshire that fits.....
Birth: SHANNON, John Thomas
Registration district: Portsea Island, Hampshire
Year of registration: 1870; Sep qtr
Volume no: 2B; Page no: 376.

Unfortunately a correction cannot be made because the Census Summary Page has his age as 10. It was probably intended to be 10 months but the word 'months' got lost during transfer from the household return to the summary page.

At this stage I should mention that finding out anything about Thomas' past in Ireland will be very difficult. The lack of surviving censuses before 1901 and the fact that civil registration didn't start until 1864 means information is very hard to come by, having to rely in the main on parish records. You could be lucky enough to find his baptism and often that means on-the-ground research either by you or a professional because relatively few records are online. I had to get a professional researcher to find my g.g.father's birth in Limerick and I now live in Ireland! But I now know his parents as well as a result.

You need to find Thomas' Army papers and find out where and when he actually enlisted. You say his discharge mentions a pension so he should be in the Chelsea pensioner records. I have found a reference in the RA Discharge Ledger dated 27th March 1883 and a note saying '21 years to pension'. What was his Army number?

Finally found Thomas Shannon [widower and Army pensioner] in the 1910 + 1 census aged 67 with his son John bn abt 1888. They are both living with Thomas' daughter Alice Blakely [nee Shannon] and her spouse Robert whom she had married in 1901, Jun qtr.

Confusingly, Thomas is shown as being born in Dublin Ireland, as is his son John. The 'Dublin' has been inserted by the enumerator who also added Shoeburyness to Essex for Alice's birthplace.

Then found this on http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/
Baptism: JOHN SHANNON
Date of Birth: 1888
Address: ST ANDREW ST
Father: THOMAS SHANNON
Mother: MARY FONDLY
Child Denomination: RC
Sponsor 1: JOHN GRADY
Sponsor 2: SARAH GRADY
Book - Number - Page Entry Number - Record_Identifier
30_____115_________N/R__________ DU-RC-BA-267926

And if you are not familiar with the city of Dublin...

Thomas was discharged 5/3/1883 and returned to Ireland and lived in the Parish of Rathmines near Dublin.

Rathmines is a small suburb of Dublin city, on the south side of the River Liffey.