Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Help required please,
My Grand father John Byrne was born 16 June 1871 in Wexford (maybe Enniscorthy).
His Father Patrick Byrne & Mother Mary nee Kenny we have a film/ filch no 255823.
Q 1 where do I get his birth cert from ?
Q2 would it have the address of the family or parish on it. The family where catholics.
Joe member 5668

joepaulinesmith@btinterne wrote:Help required please,
My Grand father John Byrne was born 16 June 1871 in Wexford (maybe Enniscorthy).
His Father Patrick Byrne & Mother Mary nee Kenny we have a film/ filch no 255823.
Q 1 where do I get his birth cert from ?
Q2 would it have the address of the family or parish on it. The family where catholics.
Joe member 5668

Hello Joe,
Civil registration of BMDs started in Ireland in 1864 so John Byrne's birth is in the Irish GRO Birth Index published online via https://www.familysearch.org/

Birth: John Byrne
gender: Male
birth date: 16 Jun 1871
birthplace: Wexford, Ireland
father's name: Patrick Byrne
mother's name: Mary Kenny
The GRO reference appears to be Volume 9-2; Page 813.

You can purchase a photocopy of the birth entry in the Register. It is exactly the same as a certified copy and is ideal for family genealogy. The cost of a photocopy is 6 Euro [abt £4.50] including post, almost half the cost of the certified 'legal' copy. The Irish GRO is online here: http://www.groireland.ie/
When you complete the order form, because of the incertainty of the GRO reference, I suggest you just enter his date of birth and they will find the right entry.

With luck it will have an address of the family home and where John was born if different. From the address you should be able to work out the relevant parish because the certs rarely show that. You would need the baptism cert to be sure of the parish and unfortunately the County Wexford baptisms are not yet online. They are coming though!

Hope this helps,
DS

EDIT to ask where did you see NOI after Enniscorthy?

Hello DS,
GRO Ireland sent birth cert for John Byrne his place of birth was Kippure, not sure about the parish of Monark or maybe the letter K should be an L.
Once again thank you very much for your help.
Regards Joe (5668)

joepaulinesmith@btinterne wrote:Hello DS,
GRO Ireland sent birth cert for John Byrne his place of birth was Kippure, not sure about the parish of Monark or maybe the letter K should be an L.
Once again thank you very much for your help.
Regards Joe (5668)

Hi Joe,
Bit of a puzzle on John Byrne's birth cert. The only Kippure I know of is in the Dublin mountains on the border with County Wicklow. There is a Kippure estate in Wicklow.

As for Monark, haven't found a church parish of that name but there is are two townlands close... Monart West in the parish of Ballindaggan and Monart East in the parish of St Aidan's. A townland is a uniquely Irish, and ancient, land area. Can be anything from an acre or two to several hundred acres. Its name usually represents a geographical feature such as a well, hill-top etc. My townland is Barraglan which means head of the glen. Monart is listed here: http://www.wexford.ie/wex/Departments/G ... 208,en.pdf

Remember that the place of birth registration is not necessarily where the birth took place. So John could well have been born in/near Kippure and registered in Wexford the next county down. Does the cert specifically state a parish of Monark/Monarl?

Haven't found a Wexford Monark or Monarl but the civil parish of Monart can be seen in full on this map, numbered 96:
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuse ... rd&UserID=
To find it, find the words Co Carlow [upper left of map]. To the east is #126 [Templeshanbo], and south east of that parish is #96 Monart.

DS

Would it be a help if you scanned the certificate so that we could see it, DS might be able to make more sense of it. Guidelines to post a photograph here

Courtesy of Joe, John Byrne's birth certificate

Hi,
Found the cert! MaryA had moved it for you to its 'rightful' place!

Fairly sure the place of birth is Kippeen in the Civil parish of Monart, Co Wexford. Kippeen isn't in the townland or village list so I believe it was the name of the house/property where the birth took place. Back then, with very low population density, almost everybody would know everybody else in the area and where they lived. As to the exact location of Kippeen... it is possible that the archivists in Wexford Library might be able to help.

The Civil Parish of Monart is in the Barony of Scarawalsh, and the Poor Law Union of Enniscorthy, in the Province of Leinster. Check here for confirmation: http://www.seanruad.com/

A Barony, like a townland, is an ancient Irish land division only on a much larger scale.

This link will take you to a page listing all the townlands in the civil parish of Monart: http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuse ... ty=Wexford

This one will tell you about Baronies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barony_(Ireland)

DS

Still looking for Kippeen. Found this reference which is interesting but doesn't help much..
http://www.irishtimes.com/search/index. ... n&x=7&y=14

It could be an Anglicised version/spelling of an Irish word so I am asking an friend who is very literate in Old Irish for his thoughts. Phonetic conversion or 'translation' of Irish place-names was very common back then, in fact it was government policy when the geographical survey of Ireland was carried out in the 1850s and '60s.

DS

I suppose there's the possibility it could just be the name of a house or farm?

MaryA wrote:I suppose there's the possibility it could just be the name of a house or farm?

Hi MaryA,
That is my presumption as well. If it isn't a village, it's definitely not a town, and it isn't listed as a townland, a property of some sort is all that's left. The father may have been a labourer cum 'tenant farmer' on an estate of sorts, or just a farm.

There may well be rent/Rates books in the Wexford archives.

DS

This address is listed on Griffiths as "Tomnakippeen" if you do a search on Griffiths there are three people listed there on the survey: John Pierce, Denis Doyle and Thomas Roche.

Blue

Blue70 wrote:This address is listed on Griffiths as "Tomnakippeen" if you do a search on Griffiths there are three people listed there on the survey: John Pierce, Denis Doyle and Thomas Roche.

Blue

Hi Blue,
Well done, you have cracked it. Tomnakippeen is a townland.

Townland: Tomnakippeen, 66 Acres, Co. Wexford, Civil parish - Monart, Barony of Scarawalsh - PLU of Enniscorthy, Province of Leinster.

According to the 1901 & 1911 Irish censuses, Tomnakippeen is in Marshallstown, a hamlet about a mile or so northwest of Enniscorthy. Easily found on Google Earth and the AA roadmaps. You can even visit via StreetView.

DS

Think I have found part of the meaning of the word Tomnakippeen. Consensus is that the word has been anglicised and in its original Irish form would be something like Tomhnacipin, with a 'fada' over the final i. The c would be a 'hard' c as in cut. The fada has the effect of lengthening the vowel sound from i as in kitten to een as in sheen.

Cipin could mean 'match' as in Swan Vesta. Still working on the other bit. The 'na' could be 'of the'. So could be a place where matches were made... Or it could also refer to a stick as in hockey stick or hurley.

DS

Well done, yes you have cracked it, both the places Monart and Marshalstown being mentioned on the birth certificate.