Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Greetings from Canada,
I have just found this web site and joined the forum in hopes that someone could help me. Living in Canada, I am not familiar with the different parts of Lancashire/Liverpool so pleae forgive me if I am posting in the wrong forum.
My Great Grandfather was Johann Ewald Richard Werner. He was born in 1843 in Elberfeld, Prussia. I dont know what year he immigrated to England but he married Mary Ann Gough in 1870 in Liverpool and they had 7 sons. The family stayed in Liverpool and the sons married, had offspring and most of them stayed in Liverpool, including my father. My fathers name was Alfred Norman, son of Emil and Minnie Werner. I have managed to trace my ancestors down from Johann and Mary Ann but I just cant find anything on Johann before he married Mary Ann, or any documentation concerning his immigration. I am hoping there are some descendents still in the Lancashire area as I am sure there are many considering Johann and Mary had 7 sons. Is there any way to research documents, pictures etc. without having to fly to England to do this? I have also heard that Johann played the violin in the Liverpool symphony at one time but have not found any proof of this.
Thank you
Susan Werner

Hello Susan

Forty years ago my sister knew a Werner I'm sure. He lived in Southport, worked in a casino and bred afghan hounds.

I will get in touch with her tomorrow and see what she remembers.

Good hunting...

SL
Member 7620

Hi
On a website www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk you will find a section called Merseyside Aliens there yu will find your Johann Werner having received a certifictae of naruralisation on 23 August 1888.

If you then go to www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and then go to the Catalogue and put in Werner and the class HO and 144 you get this
entry

HO 144/305/B4983 Nationality and Naturalisation: Werner, Johann Ewald Richard, from Germany. Resident in Liverpool. Certificate A5886 issued 23 August 1888. 1888


You can then contact the National Archives and ask them if they will make a copy of the papers about Johann and send them to you (ask the cost as well)

I would also suggest you obtain a copy of Johann's marriage certificate as that will gie his father's name and occupation. The couple married in the Oxford registration district.

This is the reference you need to obtain the marriage certificate from the GRO

December Quarter 1870 Oxford Registration District Volume 3a page 983

Johann Ewald R WERNER to Mary Anne GOUGH

Hilary
Ed Officer

The 1871 census shows the couple at 31 Albion Street Ladywood Birmingham

Ewald WERNER H M 28 jeweller bn Rhenish Prussia Eberfield
Mary A WERNER wife 24 bn Herefordshire Black (something I can't read )
Martha Powell servant 15 bn Dudley Worcestershire

I can't see Johann Ewald in the 1861 census so would suggest he may have entered the country in the timespan 1861 - 1870

Hilary
Ed Officer

Susan.

Just in case You don't already have it, Here is the 1881 Census entry for Your WERNER Family:

RG11/3686, ED 2, Folio 39, Page 1.

7 Argyle Road, Walton On Hill, West Derby, Lancashire

Ewald, 38Yrs old, Commercial Clerk, Bn Germany
Mary Ann, 33Yrs old, Bn Blackpool
Frank, 5Yrs old, Scholar, Bn Liverpool
Raoul, 2Yrs old, Bn Liverpool
Jane Rimmer, 19Yrs old, General Servant, Bn Liverpool

Weird, it does look like Blackpool in both censuses, but in the 1871 it looks like Herefordshire, Blackpool.

Hello Susan

I spoke to my sister earlier today and she said the chap she knew was called Vernon so I'm sorry my info was of no use to you.

Good luck with your search,

SL

could that be blackhill herfordshire

I suspect it could be, guessing that the enumerator may have written whatever place he knew, rather than ensuring accuracy.

MaryA wrote:I suspect it could be, guessing that the enumerator may have written whatever place he knew, rather than ensuring accuracy.

Or what He (thought) He Heard?

Thanks for all of the info. I actually have most of the info on Johann and Mary Ann and their children through census. I also have in my possession passed down to me the original documents of their naturalization papers plus marriage certificiate. What I was hoping to find was a descendent of one of his sons. All I have is the descendent of Emil, my grandfather. If I could find a descendent of another of his sons then hopefully they may have the names of Johanns mother, (His father's name is Daniel) and birth place. Johann was born in Elberfeld, Prussia. I dont know if Daniel was born there. Does anyone know how to access documents from Prussia during the 1800's? I figured with Johann and Mary Ann having 7 sons, there must surely be descendents still living in Liverpool.
Thanks again.

I guess I should list the names of the 7 sons, that might ring a bell with someone. Two of the sons died during infancy so I will list the names of the other five:
Frank Cecil b: 1876;
Raoul Oscar Ernest b: 1879;
Emil Herbert b: 1882-1957;
Max Gerald b: 1885;
Norman Hasburgh b: 1888
All of their children were born in Liverpool. The two that passed away during infancy are:Gordon Ewald b: 1884-1885 and Leo Septimus b: 1886-1888
Thanks again

To give a better snapshop of the family for anybody wishing to assist, this is the entry from the 1901 census.

15 St Ambrose Grove, Walton on the Hill, Lancashire
Ewald Werner Head M 57 Foreign Correspondent Germany (naturalised British Subject)
Mary A Wife M 53 Montgomery Welshpool
Frank son 25 Jeweller's Salesman Lancashire Liverpool
Raoul son 22 Watchmaker " "
Emil son 19 Commercial Clerk " "
Max son 16 " " " "
Norman son 12 " "
Mary Connor Mother in Law Wid 83 Montgomery Welshpool
RG13; Piece: 3456; Folio: 50; Page: 32.

We have tried to put together a few suggestions for tracing living people which you can see here http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=8154

I'm assuming that you have already researched the 1911 census, which might give a start to the families

Frank C Werner married Agnes C Hume Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended Q3 1904. Child Muriel born about 1910 and Edna in 1913.

Raoul E Werner died in the Prescot District Q1 1921 8b 850

If you were to order this death certificate it would tell you if his death was registered by a family member.

There is a marriage for
Raoul O X Werner to Ethel Currall Q2 1917 West Derby 3b 838

Child to this marriage is Peter Werner born Q2 1930 West Derby 8b 999d

so officially these two Raouls can't be the same person.

There is a death for Norman H Werner Q1 1968 Southport 10f 769 age 79.

Although the death of Raoul E might have been a red herring (although it may not) this one for Norman sounds promising and could even fit with the family that Silverlady's friend knew. It would be interesting to know who registered the death.

Thanks for that info. I havent researched the 1911 census because I am a paid subscriber to ancestry.com and they dont have the 1911 up. I just cant afford to buy into another website so it makes it tough for me to carry on researching all of Johann's children. But thanks for what you have given to me.

Copyright prevents us providing details of the full 1911 census, so even if we had a subscription we would have to be very careful.

The information I find is all from the index, however, sometimes when we find an entry the family can be worked out using a few hints some of which are here http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=7717

Frank's family was worked out because of the fairly unique name of Muriel Werner, (Ref 455) where there is also a 71 year old Isabella Hume in the household, presumably the mother in law.