Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi everyone.

Two of my ancestors births appear to have not been registered. Is this rare or was it quite common between 1899-1904.

Here's some info.

In the 1911 census Bernard Draper (1898/1899) was living with his brother Charles Draper (1904) and mother Ann Draper (1866).

Bernard and Charles were half brothers with my grt grt grandfather Henry Nolan through his father James Nolan.

Henry Nolan was born in Ireland in 1894 but moved to Liverpool with his father who I assume then met Ann Draper. I gather they never married as their children's surnames were still Draper. I've not been able to find a birth certificate for either Bernard or Charles.

I want to know if this happened because their parents (james nolan and ann draper) weren't married?

In the 1911 census it states that ann Draper is a widow. Things are getting more confusing.

I am able to pay for someone to help me carry out my searches because I seem to have hit a brick wall here. I was considering buying Charles Draper marriage certificate as it will say his fathers name on there but it takes far too long to order certificates in Liverpool.

I hope someone cane help.

Thanks again,

Dan Hughes.

p.s everyone I've mentioned has since passed away so it is ok to use their names.

From 1875 in England and Wales it was the legal requirement and the mother's responsibity to register a child's birth within 42 days of the birth. You do sometimes get children registered with a slight altering of the date of birth to save a fine.

I imagine you have searched for a date of registration a couple of years either side of the dates given. The other possibilities is that they were registered with different first names, no first name or different surnames.

A look for a baptism might be useful but you don't say where you are so that might be difficult.

You could order the marriage certificate from the GRO when you order it tells you how long it will take.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1899
DRAPER (boy) Ardwick Manchester ARD/309/52

Births Dec 1898
Draper Bernard Aston 6d 388

Births Mar 1903
Draper Charles Warrington 8c 261
Draper Charles Walsall 6b 782

Births Jun 1904
Draper Charles Derby 7b 599

Lancashire Marriage indexes 1928
DRAPER Charles MOTHAM Mary Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_LP/380/32



Lancashire Marriage indexes 1937
DRAPER Charles BOND Jane A North Meols St Cuthbert North Sefton C9/6/55

if this one I can have a friend look it up at the parish for you

One of my great grandfathers and his brothers and sisters all seem to have not had their births registered in the 1880s.

Blue

dlh1 wrote:I was considering buying Charles Draper marriage certificate as it will say his fathers name on there but it takes far too long to order certificates in Liverpool.

Northmeols has made a lovely offer there if she has found the correct marriage, if not then ordering from the GRO online is often quicker and somebody would be able to check up the references for you if you gave the details.

It is good practice to obtain the certificate so as to be certain of your research, step by step backwards.

northmeols wrote:Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1899
DRAPER (boy) Ardwick Manchester ARD/309/52

Births Dec 1898
Draper Bernard Aston 6d 388

Births Mar 1903
Draper Charles Warrington 8c 261
Draper Charles Walsall 6b 782

Births Jun 1904
Draper Charles Derby 7b 599

Lancashire Marriage indexes 1928
DRAPER Charles MOTHAM Mary Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_LP/380/32



Lancashire Marriage indexes 1937
DRAPER Charles BOND Jane A North Meols St Cuthbert North Sefton C9/6/55

if this one I can have a friend look it up at the parish for you

Hi.

Thank you so much. Around about 1910/1912 it says that Charles, Bernard and Ann (mother) were all born in Liverpool, which is why I haven't purchased birth certificates from elsewhere. However I did phone regarding the Charles Draper entry for Warrington and that was the wrong person.

I believe Charles Draper married Mary Mottram however I am not 100% sure. If you could kindly ask your friend to search for the record of marriage for Charles Draper and Jane Bond that would be great.

We believe Charles Drapers father to be a James Nolan and mother to be a Ann Draper. I don't think Ann and James were married as James Nolan had previously been married to another woman.

This is a very confusing story I understand.

Thank you all for your time and information.

As Bernard was supposed to have been born abt 1898 [+/- a couple of years] I looked in the 1901. There's only one listed and he's in Warwickshire, born 1898. Mother is Caroline. Couldn't find Bernard's mother Ann either.

I am beginning to suspect she was either already married or single when the children were born and married a Draper after 1901, possibly after Charles was born and was then widowed before 1911ish. So the children may have a different surname when registered. There are only 2 marriages 1904-1910 where a Draper may have married an Ann ???.

Then found this in Liverpool RC baptisms..
1898 - BERNARD, DRAPER - Father: BERNARD DRAPER; Mother's maiden name: ANN HOUGH.
But can't find a marriage for Ann and Bernard so was there a porkie to enable the baptism?

Dickiesam

As you are not sure who Charles married you need to first get the birth certificate of one of Charles known children. That will give you his wife's name then you can look for the marriage and then work backwards. It appears to me (but I could be wrong) that you are working on assumption rather than proven fact.

Hilary
Ed Officer

dickiesam wrote:As Bernard was supposed to have been born abt 1898 [+/- a couple of years] I looked in the 1901. There's only one listed and he's in Warwickshire, born 1898. Mother is Caroline. Couldn't find Bernard's mother Ann either.

I am beginning to suspect she was either already married or single when the children were born and married a Draper after 1901, possibly after Charles was born and was then widowed before 1911ish. So the children may have a different surname when registered. There are only 2 marriages 1904-1910 where a Draper may have married an Ann ???.

Then found this in Liverpool RC baptisms..
1898 - BERNARD, DRAPER - Father: BERNARD DRAPER; Mother's maiden name: ANN HOUGH.
But can't find a marriage for Ann and Bernard so was there a porkie to enable the baptism?

Dickiesam

Where did you find this info regarding Bernard Draper? I can't find a birth certificate for him anywhere. Is it a possibility that his birth wasn't registered because the parents weren't married and that he was just baptised?

The parents must have married at some point because the 1911 census shows her as an Ann Draper and not Hough.

I believe Bernard Drapers father (also called Barnard) must have passed away between 1903 and 1911 because their son Charles was born in 1904ish.

Liverpool RC baptisms search page:-

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... /index.htm


Blue

Hi,
I see Blue has given you the site where I found that baptism. Copies of the baptism certs are available from the site.

Re:

The parents must have married at some point because the 1911 census shows her as an Ann Draper and not Hough.

Unless you have documentary evidence to the contrary it is not wise to assume there was a marriage. A couple didn't have to prove anything regarding status when the Enumerator called to collect the census return. The 1911 was the first census where the form was left with a household to be completed and signed by the head of household. Most, if not all, of us have examples in our history where a couple gave the impression they were married but weren't. I've at least 3!

Dickiesam

Thanks to everyone for their help.

My family are Nolans and I was always told the the Drapers (Bernard and Charles) were half brothers of Henry Nolan who I believed was born in Ireland. I looked on the RC baptism website that you provided and found that Henry Nolan was actually born in Liverpool and his mother Was Ann Draper, which is the missing link between him and Bernard and Charles Draper. So a massive thank you for your help today!!!!

But I'm still confused as to why Henry Nolan was baptised as a Nolan in 1893 but on the 1911 census Bernard, Charlie and Ann are all Drapers. I'm wondering why Ann didn't keep her Nolan surname once Henry Nolans father (James Nolan) passed away. Things are getting very confusing now.

Someone also found the baptism for Bernard Draper for 1888 and that lists his mother as Ann Hough and father to be Bernard Draper!!!

I'm getting even more confused now, but I'll do some research and keep you posted on my progress if anyone is interested.

Thanks again for all your help

Hello Dan,
Glad we have been able to clear the fog somewhat!

Re:

But I'm still confused as to why Henry Nolan was baptised as a Nolan in 1893 but on the 1911 census Bernard, Charlie and Ann are all Drapers. I'm wondering why Ann didn't keep her Nolan surname once Henry Nolan's father (James Nolan) passed away. Things are getting very confusing now.

My dad had a saying... "We are what we are known by". While I am sure it was an offence to give misleading info to the census enumerator, we know it was done a lot. Whether to hide the fact the a 'married' couple weren't actually married or one half of a couple was already married to someone else or the concealment of births 'the wrong side of the blanket'...... etc.

Maybe once James Nolan had died there was no longer a reason for the pretence that Ann was married to him. We'll never know the reason for most name changes.

Brian

Yeah I was thinking the same. It's just bizarre than in 1983, Ann Nolans maiden name was Draper

2 of her children, Bernard (b1888) was known as a Draper & Charles (b1904) was known as a draper but her other son Henry was always known as a Nolan.

I guess the best thing to try and do is find the Birth certificates for Charles & Bernard Draper. Ohh and apparently there was a 4th child called James Draper but I'm unsure of his DOB as he's not listed in the 1911 Census.

Ok so going to see if someone can help me a little with finding out the mystery surrounding the mother of one of my ancestors. Her name is Ann Draper/Nolan/Sheils

Henry Nolan (b1893, Liverpool) - Father= James Nolan, Mother= Ann Draper

Bernard Draper (b1898, Liverpool) - Father=Bernard Draper, Mother= Ann Hough

Ellen Draper (b1900, Liverpool) - No Father recorded on baptism, Mother= Ann Sheils

Charles Draper (b1904, Liverpool) - Mother= Ann Draper (according to 1911Census)


Here are my questions & comments:
1) I was wondering why the mother would have changed her name so many times (with no marriage certificates being found)
2) She only appears in the 1911 census. I can't find her in other censuses
3) My great Uncle said that he though her maiden name was Sheils. I found a baptism for her possibly daughter called Ellen Draper(1900) with a mother called Ann Sheils.
4) I'm not able to find birth certificates for any of the children except for Henry Nolan(b1893) but was able to find baptism records.
5) There was also a son called James Draper but I have no information at all on him.

I just appear to be confusing myself more and more. If anyone know where I can start looking to try and find out the history of Ann Draper/Hough/Sheils I would really appreciate your help.

Many thanks.

Hello Dan,
Not being flippant here, but the only times Ann had to reasonably 'correct' as to her surname were every ten years at census time. At birth registration no proof of surname or indeed marriage to the father was required.

Often the response to the question as to the mother being married or not was a fib. Back then, if the Registrar knew the mother wasn't married she was not allowed to put the name of the father on the birth cert. Hence it could be fib-time! I've several examples on my lot.

This would also mean that a child's surname could change from that at registration time to another at the following census, depending on the name of the man the mother was living with.

Brian

Damn I wish I had a copy of the 1921 census. In the 1911 census she doesn't declare how many children she has!

I know that in 1920 she lived in Nursery Street but I can't find that anywhere.

Nursery Street was off Scotland Road

I take it Nursery Street is no longer there. I've not been able to find it. Was it knocked down in order to build the Wallasey Tunnel?

No it was the other side of the road
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co. ... laz/I8.htm