Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I'm helping a friend begin her ancestry search and already I have a brick wall. Frederick Patrick Ellis born 1883 Liverpool to Frederick Robert Ellis and Mary Kearney is last seen in 1911 at 68 Upper Parliament Street. His brother William Forrest Ellis died on the Somme in September 1916. No record of Frederick joining up. Would like some help as I can't find a marriage or death for this man. I've looked at emigration but no definite sightings by that name. He was known (according to 1911 census) as "Fred Patrick". Other siblings were Mary, Hannah and Anthony.
Many thanks for good eyes or suggestions.
Pauline.

Would I be correct in assuming that Frederick is not a direct ancestor of your friend but possible a brother of one of her ancestors?

I think you will need to look around the family to try and get clues as to what happened to Frederick. There is no registration I can see for a Frederick Patrick ELLIS so maybe that was added later and he used plain Frederick at other times.

There is a marriage for a Hannah F Ellis on www.lancashirebmd.org.uk - Frederick may have been a witness?

There is also a marriage for a Frederick ELLIS in a Toxteth Park church on the same site. This may be worth checking at some point.

I would also suggest looking for the death registrations of the parents as Frederick may have registered the deaths and his address will be shown and then you could track him through directories and or electoral rolls

After 1918 Frederick would have had the vote so should appear on the electoral rolls. You would need to find the parent's address via directories and then check the electoral roll for that address to see if Frederick is there.

Another thing you could do as Frederick's occupation would be given on the 1911 census you could look for a Frederick Ellis listed in the directory with that or similar occupation and then again check electoral rolls and directories coming forward.

Does you friend not know anything about any descendants of this family? Sometimes older relatives have stories about the family that whilst not always true often are helpful for tracking down elusive members.

Just had another thought - it might be worth trying to find where the family are buried the parents I mean and then seeing if Frederick is with them.

Hope I've given you some ideas

Hilary
Ed Officer

The parents marriage is shown on www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk website and you can obtain a copy from them. It took place at St Oswald Old Swan.

Anthony ELLIS' christening in 1887 and that of a Henry Pemberton ELLIS in 1886 took place at St Patricks so it would be worth looking at their register at some time.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Hilary...thank you so much for all the pointers. My friend had asked for info on William Forrest Ellis and I'm not sure of the relationship. She has a lot of info on him - especially war details - but nothing on the rest of the family. I have found some "interesting" historical bits concerning Mary Kearney's family! Her sister, Honora, in particular!
I have Hannah's marriage details to pass on.
Frederick was a shipping clerk.
Memories of my friends older relatives are scant....to say the least!
I can't find registration of either William or Frederick's births. That's odd isn't it? On all census entries Frederick has the "P". I've done searches for Patrick Frederick - just in case!

Shall crack on and suggest certificates are obtained. Many thanks Hilary.....someone always comes up with a suggestion I have totally missed.
Pauline.

I think the Frederick Ellis marriage at a Toxteth Park church is unlikely as the family would be RC so I wouldn't suggest that one.

I don't know where St Patrick's church was/is but it might be worth waiting until the temporary Record Office is open and then having a look at that for baptisms and marriages. The baptisms on the site I mentioned only start at 1886.


Hilary
Ed Officer

Thanks Hilary...have just sent payment for the marriage details at St Oswalds. Good grief - they are QUICK! Cheap too!
Shall post decent finds!
Pauline.

The little boy Henry Pemberton ELLIS was born in 1886 and died in 1887. I wonder where he was buried?,

Hilary
Ed Officer

Information about St Patrick's:-

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/Tox ... index.html

Liverpool History Projects can provide baptism records prior to 1886 and after 1900 if they are accessible on request. They've provided me with a lot of records they only charge £3 a record so it can be great value when you think of the price of certificates or the cost/trouble of getting to the record office and finding the records.

Blue

A step forward - or not! My friend has confirmed the elusive Frederick Patrick Ellis was her Grandad! Got a little further on the hunt as I now have the marriage cert (e-mailed) of his father, Frederick Robert Ellis to Mary Kearney at St Oswalds in 1879. Even better I've identified Fred P's grandad as Robert Joseph Ellis AND his nana as Hannah Forrest. Apparently there's a story about Hannah running away from school to marry Robert! Well, I've found Hannah - aged 16 - in 1851 in an establishment in Church St, Birkenhead as a "scholar". Frederick Robert's birth is reg 2q 1853. Can I find a marriage for Hannah and Robert? Can I diddly! Even checked the Gretna story but there's nowt there either! Does anyone have an inkling on the establishment in Church St , Birkenhead? This family is so interesting.....found a link to Sir George Justin Lynskey (son of Mary Kearney's sister!) Also got a cotton manufacturer in Blackburn on the Forrest side. Great stuff!

Glad you're making progress. If Frederick Patrick is your friend's grandfather do they not have their father/mother's birth certificate which will give the name of the mother ie who FP married. Then it might be possible to search on her name for a marriage to someone Ellis to see if that helps find his birth registration.

That sounds garbled hope you understand what I mean.

Hilary
Ed Officer

I'm with you Hilary!

All seems to be slotting together nicely. We have FP's mother (Mary Kearney) AND we now have his marriage.....Daisy Frances E. Stephens. Also her birth and death. Persistance pays!
My friend is undergoing chemo at present so I'm saving these new discoveries for a time when she needs a little cheer (after this week's session)
Hoping for some more titbits to add! Ah, remember Henry Pemberton Ellis that cropped up? Pemberton was his GGrandmother's maiden name. Another of todays finds!

Shall keep at it as the tree is coming along really nicely.
Cheers,
Pauline

The marriage of Frederick Patrick is shown on www.cheshirebmd.org.uk

He married Daisy Frances Emily STEPHENS at Emmanuel Church new Brighton

This will give you a picture of the church if you go to history on the site

www.stjamesandemmanuel.co.uk

Funnily enough it's about a mile from where my dad was born in 1917!

I wonder where they were both living in 1911?

Hilary
Ed Officer

Again......many thanks Hilary - shall apply myself to that site later! 1911 has Fred Patrick Ellis at 68 Upper Parliament St with his family. They had a 14 roomed house so I don't imagine they were skint!
I can't find Daisy on the 1911....using her names in every which way I can! Her parents are in Liscard. Got her 1901 in Kirkdale.....same in 1891.
Mum, Dad and sisters are in Walton 1881. Dad was a master mariner. She'll be here somewhere under a strange name I'm sure!
Off to look at Emmanuel Church!
Regards,
Pauline.

Found this thread googling after searching the probate calendar on ancestry. I had found Frederick Robert Ellis and William Forrest Ellis and decided to see if I could find out any more about them . How excited I am to discover that someone else is researching this family!

I believe Robert Joseph Ellis was my great great grandfathers brother.
My great grandfather Robert Crook (or Cook) Ellis was born in Preston in 1865 (his name will prove significant as I detail my research) His baptism states Crook but every other document and the family always called him Cook.

Robert Crook Ellis was the son of John Ellis (1832- 1867) and Mary Ann Knowles.
John Ellis’ parents were John Ellis (c 1805- ?) and Elizabeth Crook ( died 1845), married Leyland St Andrews C E 27 August 1827. (Elizabeth signed Betsy)

I found the baptism records of 3 of their children

St Wilfrids Preston

14 March 1830 Robert Ellis son of John and Elizabeth Ellis sponsors Roger Crook Alice Crook
6 May 1832 John Ellis son of John and Elizabeth Ellis sponsors William Crook Margaret Ellis
31 August 1834 Thomas Ellis son of John and Elizabeth Ellis John Eccles Mary Smith
I believe they also had a daughter Jane or Janet Maria but I have been unable to find a baptism record for her.
John Ellis (born c 1805) parents were Thomas Ellis and Margaret ?
Elizabeth Crooks parents were John Crook and Alice?

In 1841 the family were living in Liverpool

John Crook 75 Eating House?
Alice Crook 70
John Ellis 35 M S
Betsy Ellis 35
Jane Ellis 15
Robert Ellis 10
John Ellis 9
Thomas Ellis 7
Plus 3 female servants

1851 census
44 Chaddock Street Preston
born
John Ellis Mar 46 Cotton (can’t read next word) Merchant not known
Jane Ellis daug U 22 housekeeper Preston
Robert Ellis son U 21 bookeeper Preston
John Ellis son U 19 proprietor of (can’t read) mines? Preston
Rose Kennan serv U 22 house servant Ireland
Eliza Ellis visitor 6 none Preston
Alice Cook U 17 none Preston

Thomas Ellis is at Spinkhill College, Rensihaw (a branch of Stoneyhurst College) age 16
Johns wife Elizabeth is not listed and did not die until 1849, I don’t know were she is or who Eliza aged 6 is.


By 1861 Robert Joseph Ellis has married Hannah Forrest and is back in Liverpool
22 Eastbourne Street, Everton
born
Robert Joseph Ellis 30 General Broker Preston
Hannah Ellis 26 Blackburn
Frederick Robert Ellis son 7 Liverpool
William Francis Ellis son 5 Liverpool
Catherine Rawson serv 18 general servant Nottingham Mansfield
John Ellis father 55 general broker Preston
Janette Crook Vibert visiter 33 Preston
Charles John Matthew Vibert son 1 Liverpool
Eliza Ellis visiter U 16 Liverpool

John Ellis is now listed as born in Preston, Eliza is still with the family but now born in Liverpool. I believe Janette is Robert Joseph Ellis’ sister. I have her marriage certificate, she married Charles Vibert from Cornwall in 1854 and in 1861 he was living with his family in Cornwall with their 2 daughters (the daughters went on to be governesses and worked at one time for a future Prime Minister, but that’s another story!) Charles and Jane/Janette had another child in 1861 Ann Elizabeth but she died in 1861 and Charles John Matthew died in 1862. Charles Vibert died in 1862 and Jane/Janette was married and widowed again before dying in the workhouse I think.

Also in 1861 John Ellis (1832 –1867) and Robert Joseph Ellis were also listed on a ship “Isle of Bute” in the Isle of Man.
Thomas Ellis (born 1834) was at Stoneyhurst College in Clitheroe listed as a assistant master but I think he was a student, he went on to be a Catholic priest, I have an email from the archivist at the college if you would like to see it I can email it to you.


I also have this monumental inscription from St Ignatius Church, Preston

In loving memory of Margaret the wife of Thomas Ellis who departed this life on the 7th day of April 1845 aged 71 years
Also John Crook who departed this life on the 7th day of January 1849 aged 85 years
Also Elizabeth the beloved wife of John Ellis cotton spinner of this town and daughter of the above John Crook who departed this life on the 24th ? 1849 ??


I have a few marriage certificates, I can send you copies by email if you are interested, I too cannot find a marriage for Hannah and Robert but did wonder if they went off to the Isle of Man to marry as their daughter was born there, might be worth a look. I have tracked Hannah after Robert died to Blackburn living with her brother and in Poulton Cum Seacombe with her daughter and her dentist husband Cecil Webb.
My great grandfather appears to have not liked being called Crook and dropped the r, maybe because his father died when he was very young he did not know of the family connection to the Crook family.

Hope you find this helpful and can see from the “Crook” connection why I think my John Ellis is connected to Robert Joseph Ellis.

Wow!!! So much for me to inwardly digest (and pass on to my friend)
I can clear up two little question marks for you:
Those two words you can't make out on the 1851 census for the Ellis family are "machine" and "lead". It took me ages and the magnify facility!
One detail I'm stuck on is the marriage of Robert Joseph Ellis to Hannah Forrest. On the 1851 census she's 16 years old and a scholar in Birkenhead. Frederick Robert Ellis's birth is reg 1853. My friend says there's a tale telling of how she ran away to marry him....but I can't find anything!
I've got the 1851 with John Crook ......aha - a tie there then! Got my daughter coming for tea this evening so am typing like a whirling dervish. Shall read your post through later (when I'm relaxed) and probably take it in better.
Many thanks for so much more info I can pass to Wendy.
Pauline.

Just a quick one:
1861 census I have Robert Joseph with Hannah, Frederick Robert, William Francis, a servant, JOHN ELLIS (father - widower) Jennett Crook Vibert (visitor) Charles John Mathew Vibert, and Eliza Ellis at 22 eastbourne St, Everton. R.G. 9/2713

Hi Pauline, Sorry not been back to you on this. Just a quicky, you may be aware that ancestry have just put the parish registers on for Liverpool, Catholic and Church of England. Spent the last few evenings on there. If you have not already found it Frederick P Ellis was buried at Ford cemetery 29th November 1956 aged 74. His address was 37 Denton Drive and the grave number is N 231. There are 3 more members of the family in that grave,
Frederick Robert Ellis 12 August 1919 aged 65, 2 East Albert Park
Robert Joseph Ellis 2 August 1885 aged 55, 20 Up Stanhope
Henry P Ellis 5 January 1887 aged 2 ? months

You might already have all this if so just ignore me!
Got so many marriage certificates off this last night probably twice the value of my subscription! Won't be seeing much sun this bank holiday!

Hi Jean,
Wow! Smashing info and to be honest I spent hours on Anc' too but rooting for the Lindsay clan. Found every one of 'em. What a fantastic resource we now have there eh! I didn't have ANY of that Ellis information but will pass it on to Wendy (lady I was helping out) when I next see her. She'll be amazed by it!
Think there are going to be some very happy bunny members with Ancestry's new addition..
Cheers, Pauline.