Out of area advice needed.

Post by **PJLong** » 20 Jun 2010 20:50

Evening all,
Posting on this forum as it's the one I know and love! Helping a friend with her granddad - Arthur Dodsworth. Arthurs wife is my brick wall. He married KATHLEEN VALENTINE CLARKE reg 1904 LEWISHAM. On the next census Kathleen Valentine Dodsworth is living at Rosedale Road, Tranmere with Arthur and three kiddies. Her birthplace is Norwich, Norfolk. She's 29 (birth year around 1882) Kathleen dies 1959 aged 77 reg Birkenhead. Again pointing to a birth around 1882. I can't find a single other mention of this lady anywhere! I've checked all births for Kathleen V's.......all the varied ways of spelling all three names. I am truly stuck. Even concentrated on Kathleen Clarke's with father, George or mother Mary (names her children were given) Checked a Kathleen V. Clarke nee Matthews. Nope, she's a Violet! Kathleen V.G. Lord - born Norwich. To no avail, she's a Victoria. Anybody got any suggestions please? The obvious is to send for the marriage cert but my friend isn't minted and is hoping we can find Kathleen without spending money just yet!
I am on my knees.........Pauline.

Post by **Hilary** » 20 Jun 2010 21:29

I really feel you need to get the marriage certificate and find her father's name. I don't think you will progress much further without it. It will also be less time consuming and stressful going round in circles and getting nowhere.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Post by **PJLong** » 20 Jun 2010 21:39

Hi Hilary....yes, I think that's the only way forward with this lass! I didn't foresee any problems - with such an unusual name! Shall see if my friend wants to press on when I see her on Tuesday. I'm curious myself now!

Post by **MaryA** » 21 Jun 2010 07:56

In case it helps, my grandmother married the first time under the name Kathleen and the second time under the name Catherine. Apparently in Ireland at least they are interchangeable.

Post by **PJLong** » 21 Jun 2010 08:04

Thanks Mary.....another possibility to consider! Shall ask my friend if she has anything at all on Kathleen Valentine tomorrow. I honestly think I've covered every single option to find this lady previous to her marriage. Adds to the fun of the hunt eh?

Post by **dickiesam** » 21 Jun 2010 08:40

PJLong wrote:Thanks Mary.....another possibility to consider! Shall ask my friend if she has anything at all on Kathleen Valentine tomorrow. I honestly think I've covered every single option to find this lady previous to her marriage. Adds to the fun of the hunt eh?

More options?
CLARK, Kate - Servant - 21 - 1880 - General Servant (Domestic) - Southery, Norfolk. RG13 / 1855 / 82 / 1.

CLARKE, Kate - Dtr - Single - 18 - 1883 - Hethersett, Norfolk. RG13 / 1851 / 71 / 6.

CLARKE, Kathleen - Dtr - Single - 23 - 1878 - Mother's Help - Walsoken, Norfolk. RG13 / 1556 / 8 / 7.

Definitely need that marriage cert!

Dickiesam

Post by **PJLong** » 21 Jun 2010 09:07

Thanks Dickiesam........shall have a look at those suggestions - I'm intrigued by this lady now and will encourage the sending for of the marriage cert! Carole seems to think the "Valentine" came from the birthdate but who knows. Shall post with further findings.

Post by **dickiesam** » 21 Jun 2010 10:40

PJLong wrote:Thanks Dickiesam........shall have a look at those suggestions - I'm intrigued by this lady now and will encourage the sending for of the marriage cert! Carole seems to think the "Valentine" came from the birthdate but who knows. Shall post with further findings.

Just a thought... Isn't Valentine a man's forename? Like, who remembers Valentine Dyall ["this is The Man in Black"]? So I ran the name Valentine Clark(e), and a couple of other surnames, thru 4 censuses and every one that popped up was male. To give it to a girl would be very unusual so is it her mother's maiden name?

Like this?
Marriages Dec 1878:
CLARKE, Charles TO Valentine, Ann Jane - Liverpool - 8b - 128.
Or
Marriages Dec 1881:
Clarke, George TO Valentine, Mary Alice - Towcester - 3b - 47.

Just a thought...

Dickiesam

Post by **PJLong** » 21 Jun 2010 11:02

Yes! That thought entered my head too (along with soooo many others!) The mother having Valentine as her maiden really appealed to me. I even checked the census returns for ALL born between 1880 and 1890 with Valentine in the name anywhere. Still no wiser! Shall have to get that marriage cert sorted. Thanks Dickiesam for helping on this one.

Post by **PJLong** » 25 Jun 2010 10:09

Finally (and grudgingly) gave in and ordered the marriage cert' this morning. Even with the addition of a sister, Violet, I could not find Kathleen anywhere. Even trawled the 1891 and 1901 for any and every Kathleen born Norwich 1881/1883. Carole has a photo of a grave ......Caroline Clarke died Jan 17th 1936 aged 60. Who was Caroline? If the pic is in the family it obviously means something? Await arrival of cert' - think this one may bring suprises!

Post by **PJLong** » 01 Jul 2010 11:40

Update on my mystery lady! Marriage cert' arrived for Kathleen Valentine Clarke ........ to Arthur Dodsworth Oct 25th 1904 at the Primitive Methodist Chapel, Stanstead Road, Lewisham. Kathleen aged 22, spinster, residence 9 Manor Road, Forest Hill. Father: Samuel Clarke (deceased) Engineer.
Ha, this'll crack it. So I searched for a census with Kathleen (born Norwich about 1882) , sister Violet and father Samuel. Not a sighting anywhere. Is it me? Where am I going wrong

Post by **MaryA** » 01 Jul 2010 20:14

Can't check myself as my Ancestry has run out and am still deciding what to renew, but there is a Kate M Clarke born 1882 living Norfolk, father Samuel, on the 1891 census. Might be worth checking how the M is written, perhaps badly transcribed?

Post by **Hilary** » 01 Jul 2010 21:25

The one Mary found definitely says Kate M Clarke.

I had a look for the Caroline Clarke who died in 1936. The only Caroline Clarke of 60I could find was registered in the March Q of 1934 with an age of @61 years. The death was registered in the Loddon Reg District Norfolk.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Post by **PJLong** » 01 Jul 2010 21:26

Hi Mary.....It's defo an "M" as I looked for a "V" in the enumerators script....and the next address is Victoria Terrace! I did find an oddity earlier today - one Samuel Valentine Clarke but born 1867 Norwich and not seeming to have anything to do with my girl! Very coincidental! The fact she had a sister, Violet, is also bugging me as I can't find any trace of her either. We know Violet never married as Carole has her engagement ring. She died a spinster. Then there's this photo of a grave....Caroline Clarke died Jan 17th 1936 aged 64 or 69(difficult to be sure) Sooooo many little mysteries!

Post by **PJLong** » 01 Jul 2010 21:34

Hi Hilary. Hmmmm, this pic of the grave...........Carole has another one of a very close family friend or member, Ellen Elizabeth McCarthy who died in 1938 aged 50 years. The death is registered in Watford (they lived in Bushey) Odd thing is the graves are EXACTLY the same! Caroline's birth seems to be around 1876 - 1882 allowing for the possible ages at death.....so is she a sister to Kathleen and Violet?

Post by **PJLong** » 03 Jul 2010 13:42

Well..........after an exhausting search for a birth of one Kathleen Valentine Clarke in 1882 with no results whatsoever. About to give up when I had another search on the old IGI. I go to the bottom of our stairs (haven't got the energy for any further) There, on March 19th in Thorpe-next-Norwich is a christening for Kate Mary Clarke. I know - wrong name but blow me if father isn't Samuel and mother....Caroline! Has anybody an opinion on where the "Valentine" came from? Or where the Mary went. The Caroline whose grave I have a pic of could be named after Mum? I am going to hunt down this family and see if a Violet turns up anywhere. This is that same family Mary found ......methinks! Fingers crossed folks!

Post by **PJLong** » 03 Jul 2010 14:25

Oh fellow searchers....it gets better! The 1901 census (RG13/1840) has our Caroline Clarke.....WIDOW. Who has arrived? VIOLET! Aged 2. I'm sure these are my mysterious family! Shall now hunt for Samuel's death between 1891 and 1899. Oh my.....sucess at last?

Post by **Hilary** » 03 Jul 2010 19:13

I had a look on www.freereg.co.uk which I know has a lot of Norfolk info on it and came up with

Arthur William Clarke son of Samuel and Caroline born 24 May 1877 ch 24 June 1877

Alice Louisa Clarke daur Samuel and Caroline Clarke born 21 May 1879 ch 22 June 1879

Kate Mary Clarke d Samuel and Caroline Clarke bn 17 february 1882 ch 19 March 1882

Father Samuel on all christenings a boioler maker G E R ( Great Eastern railway)

I then looked for birth reg of above and found Arthur June Q Blofield so then looked for Kate Mary and found it June Q Blofield vol 4b p203

My feeling is that Kate's birthday maybe the 14th Feb not 17th Feb - for some reason she dilikes her name and decides to call herself Kathleen Valentine (after her birthdate) Clarke. I know of another case where Valentine after the birth date as added. My father was born oon 14 Feb and was to be called Valentine until his sailor uncle intervened and said it's be difficult when he went to school - much stronger language than that. So they called him after the sailor uncle Frank!

Samuel Clarke married Caroline Gunton June Q 1877 Blofield vol 4b 321

Hilary
Ed Officer

Post by **PJLong** » 03 Jul 2010 19:36

Hilary....thanks so much for all that info! Shall remember that site as it sounds a good one. I'm going with this family - too much of a coincidence with Violet coming along. Her birth is reg 1q 1899. Mother Caroline and father Samuel. I even reckon that grave pic IS Caroline but as we know ages get messed about to silly proportions at times. I have Caroline and Violet on the 1911 with Caroline's widowed sister......and their brother, William Gunton! Just have to pin down a probable death for dear Samuel. Has to be between 1888 and 1901 so (dare I say) should be fairly easy? Eeh what a lovely feeling when you actually find someone. Can't wait to give Carole this tale. Thanks to all for help as always.
Pauline.

Post by **MaryA** » 03 Jul 2010 19:38

Looks like you might have this one cracked - well done!