Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I am looking for any information, regarding my great grandparents, they came to liverpool from dublin, and lived in the bootle area, thier names where james and mary o'toole, they had 5 daughters, mary, margaret, ann or annie, catherine or kathleen, and veronica(my grandmother 17 feb 1913).

I do know that when my grandmother was 5 my great grandmother died giving birth to a baby boy(was told she was in her 30s) who also died about 1918, soon after my great grandfather remarried(told about 6 weeks atfer if true or not i dont know).

3 of the girls i dont know which 3 though was sent to nazareth house convent, my grandmother was sent to live with her aunt sarah my great grand mothers sister who was a spinster, off scotland road, dont know what happened to the other girl, I presume she also went to live with aunt sarah. If anyone has any more information I would be greatful.

My grandmother married william hughes(born aug 1911) around 1933 and had 8 children. Any information about my grandad would be appreciated also, I dont know much just that my great granddad was robert hughes, my granddad had 3 sisters, sarah(sally), hannah, catherine(who were put in a orphanage when great granddad remaried)

My granddad ran away from hame at 14 about 1925 to live with an aunt in st helens. he was in the army, worked at bootle docks, he had also worked kirkby industrial est, i think the munitions factory( i dont know the dates or which order)

thanks
chris

Hi and welcome to the forum

There is a birth for

Veronica O'Toole Q2 1913 West Derby 8b 620 Mother's Maiden name Redmond

There is also one for
Denis O'Toole Q3 1911 West Derby 8b 679 MMN Redmond but also a probable death for him in Q3 1911 West Derby 8b 580

At around about 1910/1912 there is a possible family living in the Bootle area that includes
James 39, Mary Ellen 39, Margaret and Mary both 6, Annie 4 and Catherine 1. There is also a Catherine Burns age 55.

Although this sounds like your family I'm unsure of their birthplaces.

My best suggestion would be for you to investigate the 1911 census http://www.1911census.co.uk where you will need to purchase credits, and see if this family could be yours. The image will give you how long the couple have been married.

A James O'Toole married a Mary E Redmond in 1893 either Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended, this might indicate a Catholic marriage and indeed Liverpool History Projects have transcribed this marriage on their site and it took place in Our Lady of Reconciliation.

IF you think these are your ancestors, you could either look at the marriage register which will be held at the Liverpool Record Office, or alternatively order a copy from the Church Register at the Liverpool History Projects site, which costs only £3.50, and this will give you more information, such as their occupations, ages, father's names and occupations etc.

William Hughes married Veronica O'Toole in 1933 Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended - again this could indicate a marriage in an RC church.

You could order this certificate from www.gro.gov.uk unfortunately these days at a cost of £9.25 which will confirm details. You will particularly need William's age at marriage to be able to proceed further. The information you will need to order this would be

William Hughes to Veronica O'Toole Q4 1933 Liverpool 8b 243

Thinking about that marriage for James O'Toole and Mary Ellen Redmond, I'm wondering if this could be a coincidence of a different couple with the same names since a date of 1893 seems very early for the children that they have C1911.

You really need to check the 1911 census if you think this is the right couple and see how long they have been married.

There is a family in bootle around 1910/1912 as follows;
James 39 cotton porter born liverpool
Mary Ellen 39 general shopkeeper, born liverpool
Margaret and Mary age 6 born liverpool
Annie age 4 born bootle
Catherine 1 born bootle
Catherine Burns born Belfast age 54 (visitor)
Address 54 Boreland St Bootle.
Couldn't find any other census entries in which the father's name is James
Hope this helps.
AJ

Forgot to mention...the couple had been married for 17 years.
AJ

hi and thank you for replying

i have checked the 1911 census and it does seem like my family, there is too much coincidence with the names, the only thing is it showing them born in liverpool, maybe it was my gg gradparents that came over, gonna look into that. not sure about my ggrandmothers maiden name being redmond, you said the marriage was 1893, the census says that james and mary was married 17 years which is 1894. thank you for your help

chris

Hi crew
Something isn't right here
There should be some more O'Toole kiddies I would have thought in 1911?? Perhaps some sadly died?

1911 Directory has James same address as a provision dealer.

1901 has a James (Otoole) prov dealer in Kirkdale bn Ireland aged 30yrs but his wife is Annie & they've little Sarah 2 & half yrs.

There's a marriage in 1919 mar qtr James to Margaret J Sutcliffe
W Dby R/O
Death Mary E O'Toole mar qtr 1918 W Dby age as 45 (we all know this doesn't mean a thing!!)

Gotta an idea
Back soon

Tina

Had a wombat in 1901 for Redmonds.
Found them, they have a grandson Denis O'TOOLE aged 4 yrs.
Death of Denis in June qtr 1901 poor little fella.
Birth of another Denis nee Redmond sep qtr 1911 and sadly death same qtr 0yrs.

Interesting in 1891 Redmonds, dghtr Mary E 18 bn 1873c (same age as death previous post) bn Lpool shopgirl.
She has a sister SARAH.

"Annie 28" in 1901 is born Huyton.
I'm not sure if she's Mary E???
Or the enumerator had his wires crossed

Tina

chughes1964 wrote: not sure about my ggrandmothers maiden name being redmond,

Easy way to resolve this query is by obtaining the birth certificate of your grandmother.

I gave you the reference "Veronica O'Toole Q2 1913 West Derby 8b 620 " for the only Veronica O'Toole birth that was registered for the date you gave. Using these details you can obtain the birth certificate online from www.gro.gov.uk this will confirm her father's name AND her mother's maiden name, also their address. As the birth indexes for 1913 also quote the mother's maiden name, you will find that the name given was Redmond.

chughes1964 wrote: you said the marriage was 1893, the census says that james and mary was married 17 years which is 1894.

The GRO Reference for the marriage, the certificate for which you could order, using the link above, is

James O'Toole to Mary Ellen Redmond Q3 1893 Liverpool 8b 293

As the marriage took place somewhere between July and September 1893 and the census was taken on the night of 2nd April, 1911, they would indeed have been married for 17 years.

thank you for your help, there is too many coincidences, i think maybe the information i got off my aunty was confused, she did tell me that she was only a young girl when she heard the information, she used to listen to her aunties telling my grandmother, im going to order my grandmother birth certificate like you suggested mary a,

thank you again

chris

We are all curious to know the number of children that were noted on the census, both living and died, since they had been married for 17 years, we believe there should have been more.

i will try and find out, i do know that my ggrandmother had died giving birth to a baby boy, but that was about 1918,

chris

just done a search on free bmd for births o'toole births, mothers maiden name redmond and only 2 have come up, denis and veronica, none of the other names on the census have come up

Mother's maiden name was not listed at the time the children in 1911 were born.

Tina

MaryA wrote: the number of children that were noted on the census,

What I mean is the numbers in the columns on the 1911 census.

i have done a search on deaths and there are 17 possible young deaths between 1894 and 1912, there must be away i can narrow it down

Thinking more about those that might not have died, but you haven't told us the numbers.

i dont know what you mean marya, from what my aunty told me the daughters on the census are the only sibblings my grandmother had, when i just checked the census they had put down 3 children that have died

I think it would help people to help you if you post the complete details you have from the 1911 census ie names, ages, occupations, places of birth, how long married, how many children born alive how many children who have now died and the address

Hilary
Ed Officer