Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

This event did not happen in Liverpool but I wondered if anyone knew any good sites to look at old provincial newspapers?

A relative of mine (!) was born Walter Waller Frankish in Lincoln in 1860. His father was a solicitors clerk. In the 1875 or 76 he was imprisoned for a year for embezzlement. He then disappears for some years but turns up having renamed himself Walter or Walter Frankish or Frank with the surname of ROSEBY living as man and wife with a Jane Nicholson who calls herself Jane Roseby. They had several children together starting in 1883 but marry in 1896. Walter now works as a ticket collecter then a painter.

I assume the reinvention was due to his criminal record but I would love to know more about what he did and where he was between finishing his sentence and getting married in 1896!

Hi there and welcome to the site,

I have access to the old newspapers on line via Lancashire libraries, there are 3 articles in the newspapers in 1876 in The Nottinghamshire Guardian.

The articles are quite long to read, I will send you a PM with the details, but Walter was a very naughty boy! He Joined the Royal Marines, that would explain his absence.

PM sent.

Jan

He joined the Marines as

FRANK HENRY MORTIMER

Where is Walter in 1881 ???

THANK YOU SO MUCH!! It is amazing to have the full information available. I had thought that I would have to go down to Lincoln one day to search out details.

He does sound a bad 'un doesn't he? On the 1891 census he gives his name as Walter Roseby and he is then in Manchester (via Yorkshire) and he puts his wife and children on the census as Roseby too. Yet when he marries Jane in 1896 his name is Frankish again!

I wonder if the moves to fifferent parts of the country and name changes suggest he was still sailing close to the wind!

Many thanks too for the info about the marines. Would he have been at sea in 1881 I wonder? Ironically my Grandad (his grandson) was put in the merchant navy when he was about 15 because his Dad had died and his mother felt he was becoming out of control. (THis was in the 1920s) It turned things round for him and he made asuccess of his life but he was a very hard man and I was terrified of him as a child.
Colette - I was interested in your information about him joining the marines in another name. How did you find this??
Many thanks

Hi the National Archives web site....

Record Summary
Scope and content Folios 524-535. Frank Henry Mortimer alias Walter Waller Frankish, born Nottinghamshire.
Attestation papers to serve in the Royal Marines at Chatham 1876 (when aged 17).
Discharged 1876 as Worthless.
Covering dates 1876
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years
Held by The National Archives, Kew

xx

Thank you Graley for sharing this.
Something like this turns up every now and then in the forum.
Fascinating reading.

Tina

Thanks for the information about his marine records.
I assume that he was discharged as worthless is a reference to his criminal record and that they no longer wanted him!
With his love of an alias I dont hold out much hope of tracking him down in the 1880s. I have sent off for the birth certificate of Luther Nicholson - the first born of Jane Nicholson who he appeared to live with as man and wife but I dont know if it will give any more information.
Incidentally, on his son's marriage certificate the fathers name is given as Frederick Roseby so it seems that the name changes continued!
Many thanks again for all your help and interest.

I'm sure you already have all this but just can't resist posting it
1861 census. ?? Gate Lincoln Home
Richard Waller 60 grocer
Sarah 59,
Mary FRANKISH 25 milliner widow (so young)
Walter W 1yr (Walter Waller june qtr 1859 Lincoln 7a p444)
All born Lincs.
RG9/2360/19/31

Marriage Mary Ann Waller to John Frankish
Mar qtr 1858 Lincoln 7a 628

Death John Frankish dec qtr 1859 Lincoln.

1871 Clarke Gate next door to city jail
Richard Waller grocer 70
daughter Mary Ann Frankish widow 35 milliner
g/son William W 11.
RG10/3372/44/32

Tina

Thanks for that Tina.
I have recently sent off for Mary and John's marriage certificate.
It is sad that Walter's father died when he was so young - he must have been under 6 months.
It is tempting to undertake a bit of cod psychology and wonder if this contributed to his later life! But then so many children grew up without fathers and/or mothers in the 18th century didn't they?
I think his mother may have died when he was 13/14 as there is a death of a Mary Frankish in 1874 although I dont have the death cert to be sure it is her.
This is what is so fascinating about family history - each extra piece of infornation is thrilling but then leaves you wanting more! I love reading the postings on the site.
Thank you to everyone who has helped. I will make sure I help whenever I can do.
Best wishes.

Hi Graley
Lovely reply, thank you about offering to help, always welcome here.
There's very sadly a death as you mentioned, in Lincoln, for Mary Ann 1874 aged 38yrs.
Also grandpa Richard Waller in 1878 aged 77yrs.
WW was only about 16 when he got done for embezzlement & 17 when he tried to join Marines.
His grandpa was alive but perhaps in care, WW could have been homeless??



Tina

Oh dear it looks like he used his grandpa to obtain the watches!
He appeared in court dressed as a private in the Marines yet they dobbed in him
WW not nearly as bad as some of the other crimes you read in these old newspapers.
Perhaps he was a compulsive liar??

Tina
avagoodweekend

1891 has Walter F Roseby in Pendleton/Salford
son Walter bn Bradford 8yrs
Harold 2.
The only birth I can find is for a Walter Nicholson.
No Roseby's or other surnames.
(I've sent an error into Anc## they have him in census as Wlater (jr))

I did find Harold born 1889 jun qtr in Salford as Roseby.
Little Luther in 1891 5 yrs says born Lancs, I've found a birth in Eccleshall Yorks for Luther Frankish march qtr 1885.

1901 census Luther is listed as born Sheffield.
Here's the rest
Walter F, Luther, Harold, Fredk, Richd W, Dorothy & Jessie 10months(born Roseby)

The marriage certificate 1896 would be one I would just have to send for....there's no asterisk in Lancs BMD which usually indicates a second marriage, but not always...
Question, where on earth did he conjure up the surname Roseby??

Tina

Thanks Tina.
Sorry about my earlier post - Im getting the names wrong now!
The birth cert I have sent for is Walter Nicholson - born Bradford in 1883. I am assuming he is the right Walter as as you say there is a Walter Roseby of the right age on the 1901 census and the fact his first name is Walter suggests Walter Frankish may have been the father. It will be interesting to see what it says on the cert!
Like you, I cant find the births of subsequent children which suggests other aliases may have been involved!
The only clue I have on the choice of the name Roseby was something I found while playing around with the name on Find My Past. In 1882 there was a notorious and well publicised divorce Roseby v Roseby. Whether he heard of it and latched on to the name I dont know!
Strange to think that much of My Mums family's identity is based on a whim!

Just love reading these stories !!!! Good luck

Hi Graley
This is a fascinating post! Here's another name change

In 1911 there's a Walter 'FRANKEST' Roseby in Prestwich
Free BMD have him born in Prestwich 1908 middle name Frankish.
Rest of the family are FRANK Roseby 28, Lily 28, Herbert 1, lodger John Flyn.
Frank is a Horsekeeper (MW) not sure what that means bn Bradford Yorks
Lily housekeeper married 6yrs, she & children born Bradford MANCHESTER...
32 Charles St Bradford Manchester rego area Prestwich, Parish North Manchester.
Marriage Free BMD 1905 Prestwich
Walter Frankish Roseby to Lily Goodwill

cya later
Tina

Just for your notes, Luther as Roseby in 1911 in Prestwich aged 24 wife Martha 21. Newlyweds !
Luther F Roseby marr Martha Hutchinson Free BMD mar qtr 1911 Prestwich.
Death Luther F aged 40yrs 1927 Manchester North
Death Walter F aged 47yrs 1929 Manchester North
Death Freddie F aged 32yrs 1924 Prestwich
Death Jane aged 64yrs 1927 Manchester North
1910 Walter Frankish Roseby 49yrs jun qtr 1910 Prestwich
Aaarrggh Death Richard Walter 8yrs 1903 Prestwich

there's a birth in 1906 Beatrice & her death sadly aged 3yrs.
Don't know who she belonged too.
also Thomas Henry born and died 1909
Emily born & died 1910, all Prestwich
Charles L maiden Hutchinson bn sep 1913 died mar 1914.


1911 Prestwich
James female 47(this must be Jane) HARROLD F 22, Frederick 19 Dorothy 15, Jessie 10, Herbert 8, Ellen 6.
(Herbert FRANKISH Roseby 1902)

stay STOP if you have all this

Tina

Many thanks Tina. That is great as I dint have access to the 1911 census.

The Walter Frankest Roseby you refer to in your earlier post was my Mum's Uncle Walter. He was put in a home in Blackburn when he was 6 as he had epilepsy and stayed there till he died in his 80s. Can you imagine being 6 years old and sent away permenantly from your family ?
The Frank Roseby recorded as head of the family will be my G Grandad. He was originaaly Frank so as you say yet anothe rname change. He was Walter Frankish Roseby on his marriage cert but interestingly his father (the original Walter Waller Frankish/Walter Roseby/Frank Henry Mortimor)
os ststed as Frererick Roseby! So maybe there was another name change around 1905 when Walter/Frank married.
On the original Walter's death cert he is listed as Walter Frankish Roseby (died 1910) and he is a painter.
I may try and trawl the birth records for the 1880s to see if I can find any of the children to see if I can track the family down.
As the first child was born in 1883 there is a chance that Jane and Walter were already together in 1881 and the fact both are missing from the 1881 census may suggest they were together under assumed names!
I will see what Walter (1883) birth cert says and take it from there. Hopefully it will be here next week!

Many many thanks

I have recently found some more about my relatives and would welcome your views.
Walter Frankish (who took on the name Roseby sometime in the late 1880s) went to prison in 1876 for embezzlement. He tried to avoid jail by running away and trying to join the Marines under the assumed name of Henry Mortimer but was caught and sentenced to a years hard labour and 5 years police supervision.

In 1881 he turns up in Bolton living in a boarding house with Jane Nicholson and registered as husband and wife (they actually dont marry till 1896). He is using the name Walter Harold Mortimer.
In 1882 they have their first son. They are then living in Bradford Yorkshire. The son is registered as Walter Frankish Mortimer (later he becomes Roseby) and Walter Senior is shown as a Solicitors Clerk.

Do you think he was sing this name to avoid police supervision? Would he really have been a Solicitor's clerk? It seems unlikely in view of his record (but then he has a false name). Also it does not tie in with his other jobs - although he was an accounts clerk (age 17) before his arrest he was a railaway porter in 1881; a ticket writer in 1896; a painters carter in 1891 and a painter in 1901.
His father was a Solictors clerk so I wonder if he just borrowed the name. He seems to have been a real Billy Liar character.
In addition why did he not marry till 1896 - was it because he was on the run or living under a false name? If so what may have changed in 1896?
Having obtained this latest information I seem to have so many more questions than answers! Any thoughts gratefully received!!
Many thanks.

Hi,
Re:

In addition why did he not marry till 1896 - was it because he was on the run or living under a false name? If so what may have changed in 1896?

As the crew will confirm there are many reasons why people don't marry and live together for years before finally doing 'the deed'. In my experience the most common reason by far is that one party was already married. But sometimes that didn't stop them marrying bigamously.

Because divorce was virtually impossible for the lower classes the marriage would eventually take place when the 'absent' legal spouse had died. I have two instances where a couple had children and were together for over 20 years before getting married. They were puzzling cases until I discovered the previous marriage and an eventual death a year or two before my rellies married.

DS

I did wonder about that. However Walter and his wife were together from at least 1881 when they were living together in Bolton and Walter only came out of jail in 1877 or 1888 and Jane was only 18 in 1881. I cannot find a marriage for either between these dates and they are recorded as bachelor and spinster on their marriage certificates
This is also the first record of Walter using his real name (although one of the sons was registered as Frankish) so I do wonder if his past was the reason they had not married and he was living under an assumed identity. Maybe Jane did not know of his past. The children were given different names on their birth certifiicates so she must at least have known of their changing surnames!