Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I would very much appreciate help in finding information about my Grandmother and her family. I don't have lot to go on, apart from Ellen Hinds marriage certificate showing,
25 Dec 1894 Parish of St Simon. George Williams 22 Painter of 12 Bridport St., father George Williams Painter married Ellen Hinds 18 of 82 Lime St., father James Hinds Mariner

1891 and 1901 no reference to Ellen Hinds, Hynds Hind or James Hinds, Hynds. Hind. Mariner

The only information I have is from my Aunt Ada Williams my father’s sister in law, this would be referring to about 1930. She says “Grandma Williams had a sister named Kate Hines “her spelling”. I don’t know her married name, she lived in a street off Addison off Scotland road, a very large block of council flats. Grandma came from a large family. I think her mother had been married twice, because her sisters and brothers had different surnames

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I'm often suspicious of ages given on marriages certificates, if they are 18 since it sometimes suggests a minor giving a false age, so a search for the couple in a census after their marriage might be helpful.

In the 1901 census you would be looking for a George and Ellen Williams, not Hinds, and there are two who might fit the bill, one in Kirkdale and one in Everton.

Do you have details of any children from this marriage? names and ages that could be checked against the census entries.

Hello Mary
You were of great help recently in advising that I had the wrong George Williams senior's wife.
I have just become a paid member, but don't have a number as yet.
I am okay with the Williams side, it is my grandmother Ellen nee Hinds and her father James Hinds side that I am having trouble finding.
The marriage certificate in December 1894 between George and Ellen showing James Hinds as father is all that I have to go on and not being able to find Ellen Hinds in the 1891 census leads me to believe she didn't have that surname then. Census under the name of Williams later show her as born in Liverpool.
I cannot find any reference to James Hinds mariner in any census, probably because he was away quite often

Hi Jim
You said in a census Ellen (under Williams) was born in Lpool.
Please can you give us the details?
Both George's in 1901 are not painters.
Tks
Ellen 18 at time of marriage bn 1876c

Tina

Hello Tina
Thanks for the reply
I believe I have traced the Williams family back to 1881 census:

2 House 1 Court, Mount Vernon Road West Derby

Williams George 34 Head Paperhanger B Wales
Williams Elizabeth 35 Wife B Liverpool
Williams George 8 son B Liverpool
Williams Annie 6 daughter B Liverpool
Williams Mary 3 daughter B Liverpool
Williams Fanny 2 daughter B Liverpool

I have a birth certificate for Sarah Francis born 21 Nov 1879
Father George Williams Paperhanger, mother Elizabeth formerly Bush
1 Court Highgate Street West Derby

1891 Census

48 Hawdon St, West Derby

Williams Elizabeth 46 Mother House Keeper Domestic B Liverpool
Williams George 18 Painter B Liverpool
Williams Mary E 13 Scholar B Liverpool
Williams Francis 11 Scholar B Liverpool
Williams Elizabeth 9 Scholar B Liverpool
Williams Joseph 7 Scholar B Liverpool

1901 Census

42 Shenston St West Derby

Willcox William B Liverpool
Willcox Annie 25 Wife B Liverpool
Williams Elizabeth 55 Grandmother B Liverpool
Williams Elizabeth 19 Daughter B Liverpool
Williams Sarah Francis 20 Daughter B Liverpool
Williams Elizabeth 19 Daughter B Liverpool

1901 Census

2 in 4 Court Abram Street South Everton

Williams George 28 Head General Labourer B Liverpool
Williams Ellen 24 Wife B Liverpool
Williams Elizabeth 2 Daughter B Liverpool

About 1910-1912

8 Boycott Street Everton

Williams George 38 Head House Painter B Liverpool
Williams Ellen 34 Wife married 16 years B Liverpool
Williams Elizabeth 12 Daughter B Liverpool
Williams George 9 Son B Liverpool
Williams Joseph 8 son B Liverpool
Williams Frederick 5 son B Liverpool
Williams William Henry 2 son B Liverpool
Williams Doris 1 m daughter B Liverpool
Eva Peers 7 Niece B Liverpool

William Henry is my father
Eva Peers traced back to 1903 Mother Sarah Francis Williams. (Fanny in 1881} Living at 48 Shenstone Street

Although George was a Labourer in 1901. Ellen and daughter Elizabeth ages tally with 1911. George also did 2 or 3 trips as a Merchant Seaman no doubt with the help from father in law James Hinds Mariner

Jim

______________________

Member number 8003

Williams Liverpool and Carnarvon Carmarthen. Hinds Bush Willcox Peers Liverpool

Any census/bmd information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Many thanks Jim for all the census info.
Ellen's age in 1911 agrees with 1876 birth.
Ellen not an easy name, often Nell, Nellie, Nelly, Helen, Helena sometimes Mary Ellen

Kate whom you mention, could you give a time frame for her please?

Good to know you have your Williams sorted, not an easy surname!

Tina

Hello Jim,
Noted that Sarah Francis birth cert info and wonder if this is the marriage of George and Elizabeth?
Marriages Sep 1865:
Bush, Elizabeth - W Derby - 8b - 691.
McPherson, John - W Derby - 8b - 691.
Williams, George - W Derby - 8b - 691.
Williams, Jane - W Derby - 8b - 691.

Dickiesam

Hello Dickiesam
Thanks for the reply

Noted that Sarah Francis birth cert info and wonder if this is the marriage of George and Elizabeth?
Marriages Sep 1865:
Bush, Elizabeth - W Derby - 8b - 691.
McPherson, John - W Derby - 8b - 691.
Williams, George - W Derby - 8b - 691.
Williams, Jane - W Derby - 8b - 691.

I have a copy of marriage certificate between George Williams 22 Paperhanger of 21 Jenkinson Street, father George Williams Painter and Elizabeth Bush 20 34 Haigh Street father, Joseph Bush. Glasscutter on 20 August 1865. Witnesses Alfred Rigby and Mary Bush at the Parish of Walton on the Hill.

Do you think this was a double wedding having the same page and volume numbers. Very interesting if so

Thanks once again for your kind message

Jim

_________________________

Member number 8003
Williams Liverpool and Carnarvon Carmarthen. Hinds Bush Willcox Peers Liverpool

Any census/bmd information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Hello Tina

My 100 year Aunt Ada, widow of Fred Williams now living in Perth Australia, wrote to me a few years ago. In one of her letters she says.
Grandma Williams had a sister named Kate Hines? (her question mark). I don't know her married name. She lived in a street off Addison off Scotland road, a very large block of council flats. Grandma came from a large family. I think her mother had been married twice, because some of her brothers and sisters had different surnames.
As she would have first met Grandma Ellen about 1930. I presume she would have been referring to that time
As you see Tina an almost impossible task, the result of being told as a child, "children are to be seen and not heard". Therefore, I didn't ask questions of my parents, until it was too late

I am going back to the LDS Church here in Geelong Victoria Australia where I did a lot of my research some years ago and concentrate on finding any record of James Hinds Church marriage, starting from the centre of Liverpool and working outwards.
A mammoth task, but I once worked through the entire 1891 census looking for George Williams, without success I might add

_________________________

Member number 8003
Williams Liverpool and Carnarvon Carmarthen. Hinds Bush Willcox Peers Liverpool

Any census/bmd information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

You might guess, due to the lack of specific replies, that we haven't come to any conclusions about this.

My gut feeling is that the Hinds may have originated in Cheshire, this name with some of the men being mariners and watermen are on the censuses with birthplaces such as Northwich and Over etc.

I don't know how much use you have made of the LancsBMD site but many years are complete.

In preparation before your visit to the LDS Centre, if you were to list all the marriages from the GRO Index (available on Ancestry, Findmypast etc.) and cross reference them against those found on LancsBMD you would have the churches where the ceremonies took place, in many instances.

It's very possible that there was a double marriage

John McPherson married Jane Williams (or Hughes) in St Peters, Everton.
It would seem that she was a widow and one of these names would be her previous married name and the other her maiden name.

George Williams married Elizabeth Bush in the same church.

Many Thanks Mary
This will keep the old grey matter working and I will do as you suggest and keep you posted.


Member number 8003
Williams Liverpool and Carnarvon Carmarthen. Hinds Bush Willcox Peers Liverpool

Any census/bmd information within this post is Crown Copyright from http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Hello dickiesam
I have sent for the marriage certificate of John Mcpherson and Jane Williams and will let you know the result.

Hello Mary
I wasn't aware of the LancsBMD site or Ancestry, Findmypast, but I will certainly have a look now.
I am only using The Genealogist.co.uk for BMDs and Census.
If there is a preference members have, I would be interested to know what they are.

May I ask Mary how you found your information about :
"John McPherson married Jane Williams (or Hughes) in St Peters, Everton.
It would seem that she was a widow and one of these names would be her previous married name and the other her maiden name."
Regards
Jim

Hi Jim
Thanks for telling me about your dear old Aunty here in the West!

Mary probably would have got the marriage info from Lancs BMD free site.
You will see an asterisk next to McPherson, click on this & 2 surnames appear for Jane.
Usually means the bride had been widowed.
We have known a widow to have remarried but no asterisk or 2nd name, can't always rely on it, depends on what the registers say.
Free BMD list only Williams but this record is good if you need to order from GRO as it gives qtr district vol No. & page.

Both marriages same church & same Free BMD details.

Tina
(ps I've a similar situation same day at St Peter's, on a Christmas Eve!!)

Thanks for a good explanation Tina.

I think I need to add something to our guidelines to explain the differences between the indexes, I think it was The Minutes Secretary who gave a very good explanation in the latest Journal, I think I'll ask her permission to quote from her article, meantime a brief explanation is that

Birth, marriage and death registrations were entered locally and then each quarter a copy of the registers were sent to the General Register Office. They were collected in Southport from everywhere in the country and compiled into an alphabetical index - this index for the whole of England and Wales is what you look at when you you search "the indexes" either on microfiche at your library, local LDS Centre or Record Office. This same index is available on many online sites, including the sites I mentioned above, also the Genealogist and Genesreunited and possibly others, including the free site where they are transcribed http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ Because the names are collected together, to order a certificate from the GRO the reference from these indexes is is required in order to identify which district the ceremony took place and the page number. Often as the details were taken from a register with either two or four couples on a page, there might be a certain amount of guesswork involved to decide if it is the correct entry you need.

The LancashireBMD site is part of a national transcription project, many counties take part in this. Transcriptions that are uploaded to this site have been taken from the local registers. The beauty of these is that sometimes in the case of births additional information is given, eg mother's maiden name, age at death, and the marriages are matched bride and groom and the Church is noted where possible.

A Church of England minister was also a Registrar which is how the Registers are able to be noted with the church, unfortunately marriages held in a Roman Catholic Church, and possibly some other non conformist churches, required a Registrar to be present and so these marriages are noted as "Register Office or Registrar Attended". In these cases, although the benefit of bride and groom identification is there, it is not possible to identify the church.

I hope this goes some way to explaining the differences between the LancashireBMD transcriptions and the GRO indexes.

Thank you very much Tina for the Lancs BMD free site and for the explanation

Thanks Jim
Good suggestion Mary about the Minutes Secretary item although you did an excellent job!
Tina
I hope you pick a winner in the National everyone...
I'm going for Snowy Morning as you guys had so many of them