Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

One of my searches at the Record Office this week will be to see if I can find a marriage -
James Russell married Margaret Ellen Longworth, Q2 1884 - somewhere where a Registrar attended.

In 1891 Margaret (age 27) and her children were living with her mother Annie Longworth in Leven Street, Kirkdale and in 1881 she was of course, unmarried and the family were living in Croylands Street, Kirkdale. Margaret and her sisters were baptised in St Mary's, Walton on the Hill (thanks to the Lancs OPC site).

Her father Thomas Longworth is variously noted as being an Engine Stoker or Engine Driver and although he's not at home in 1891, he is back in 1901.

So far James Russell doesn't seem to show up on any censuses with Margaret and children. By 1901 Nellie is with her grandparents, still in Leven Street, another child Agnes, is in the Liverpool Seaman's Institute, the son I'm interested in John Henry (b 1886) is so far not found, nor his mother Margaret Ellen.

John married in 1906 St Mary's Kirkdale, living in Barry Street, naming his father James, deceased, an Engineer, as did Margaret Helen (Nellie) later that year.

The baptisms and marriage places of the above lead me to think that the marriage probably didn't take place in an RC church.

A family member suggests that the Russells originated in Scotland, so apart from St Andrews, Rodney Street, can anybody suggest which other Churches I should try - alternatively how likely was it that they actually did marry in a Register Office? You may remember my question on the Not Genealogy board about this.

I've waffled on a bit here but I suspect if I didn't give you as many answers as I could think of, you'd ask questions anyway

Thanks for reading and for any suggestions you might have for me.

Hi Mary

Here's a couple of non-conformist churches in the area that could be where the marriage took place:-

Union Church (Presbyterian)
Fountains Road
Kirkdale
(Founded 1881)

Wesleyan Methodist Church
Walton Road
Kirkdale
(Founded 1880)


Col

Thanks Col, will check those while I'm there. Also wondering about any more Presbyterian churches around - anybody know any more of them although Fountains Road would be practically on the doorstep I would imagine.

Hi Mary...just a thought but on the 1891 census condition as to marriage etc... the transcription has been crossed through ...and almost looks like a W then S crossed through...Is it possible they never married.?

As he was on the childrens marriage certs as deceased is it possible he died just before the 1891 census whilst Margaret Ellen was pregnant with James who was 31/2 months when the census was taken...Then he would never have been on a census with her and the family

You have probably already thought of these options ...((apologies if you have))

Ann...

Ooooh gossip!! Trying to find Margaret Russell (nee Longworth) and son John Henry, in the 1901 census and I came across "Henry" of the right age, mother Margaret, stepson to Francis Cosgrove, living in Bootle, thought it worth taking a gander since he was known as Henry in 1911.

So I looked for a marriage and didn't find it until 1909 in Litherland, St Philip - ooh I love a bit of scandal!!

Now of course it makes me wonder if it was really young Agnes in the Seaman's Home, something else to look up.

Another church. This one is United Reform another non-conformist church probably similar in some ways to the Scots Presbyterian churches in that they tend to be more reformist than the C of E. They would probably consider C of E churches not reformed enough in the protestant tradition:-

Westminister Rd Congregational, Orwell Road, Kirkdale


Col

MaryA wrote:Ooooh gossip!! Trying to find Margaret Russell (nee Longworth) and son John Henry, in the 1901 census and I came across "Henry" of the right age, mother Margaret, stepson to Francis Cosgrove, living in Bootle, thought it worth taking a gander since he was known as Henry in 1911.

So I looked for a marriage and didn't find it until 1909 in Litherland, St Philip - ooh I love a bit of scandal!!

Now of course it makes me wonder if it was really young Agnes in the Seaman's Home, something else to look up.

Free bmd he is as Francis Cosgrove to Margaret Russ ?.. there is a Margaret Russell on but spouse cannot be found..mmmmmmmm

Blue70 wrote:United Reform .....

Westminister Rd Congregational, Orwell Road, Kirkdale

Thanks again Col, I'm appreciating your experience as I haven't had any myself in anything other than C of E and RC.

My memory is of a United Reform on Walton/County Road, on the corner where a frozen food shop is now - just checked on googlemaps which must be quite old since it's on there as County Methodist Church, would you think this one is likely also?

DAISYCAKES wrote:Free bmd he is as Francis Cosgrove to Margaret Russ ?.. there is a Margaret Russell on but spouse cannot be found..mmmmmmmm

I noticed that, it seems that the transcriber couldn't read the page number and so there are no matches. I was lucky that I found it on the LancashireBMD site.

DAISYCAKES wrote:Hi Mary...just a thought but on the 1891 census condition as to marriage etc... the transcription has been crossed through ...and almost looks like a W then S crossed through...Is it possible they never married.?

Sorry I forgot to respond to this query - There is a marriage on LancashireBMD between Margaret Longworth and James Russell, as James Russell, Engineer is noted on the marriage certificates of two children, I have to have faith that there was a marriage and this was probably it, just needs finding.

Hi Mary

According to the OPC site County Methodist was established in 1890 so that date would exclude it.


Col

Thanks again Col, one to knock off the list.

Hi Mary
All the very best with your search
There was a Congregational Chapel in Leven St in 1894 Directory.
Tom Longworth at No. 40 engine driver.
Can only find a James Russell engine driver in Olivia St Bootle 1894.

Tina

Hi folks
Anc@ have a marriage for Margaret Russell 1909 page 8b
ref _56
I clicked on the image and the volume should be 456.
Francis Cosgrove is listed with the correct page & vol all by himself in Anc@ W Dby rego.

Good luck Mary with St Philips Litherland look up..

Tina

Hi Mary,

You have a task on your hands there, I have been racking my brain (that hurt!) trying to suggest something for you.

I have looked at the possibles in the area and found these http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Kirkdale/

If it was a catholic marriage there is the possibility of St John The Evangelist, Fountains Road.

I will try and find out when that was built. It would be a matter of finding out the dates the churches were in the area at the time of marriage.

Hope that has helped a bit.

Jan

Hi Jan
I think it was 1885 but don't quote me

Tina

Hi Tina,

LRO have the records from 1872

RefNo 282 JNK
Title St. John's Roman Catholic Church, Kirkdale
Date 1872-1941
Extent 10 volumes
AccessConditions Available on microfilm only

Jan

Tina wrote:Hi Mary
Tom Longworth at No. 40 engine driver.

That's my guy!! well father of the bride anyway.

Tina wrote:Hi Mary
Can only find a James Russell engine driver in Olivia St Bootle 1894.

Well worth keeping that one in mind Tina, thanks a lot it sounds promising, also for the Congregational Chapel, I might need to ask about those records as I don't see any reference to it in the catalogue I have a feeling it might be the same one that Col mentioned above, "Westminister Rd Congregational, Orwell Road"

Jan44 wrote:St John The Evangelist, Fountains Road.

Thanks Jan, that one is on my list - guess who was baptised there

Thanks Jan

Hi Mary, yep it's the same church
1894 after No. 211 Orwell
Congregational Church
here is Westminster Rd & Leven St

Good Luck
Tina

I had another look on Liv RO online catalogue and they don't appear to have any marriages for Westminster Road, I couldn't find anything for Leven Street either on there.

RefNo 285 WES
Title Westminster Road Congregational Church (now United Reformed)
Date 1862-1974
Description 1. Baptism register, 1 vol., 1908 - 1955
2. Church meetings minutes, 5 vols., 1862 - 1964
3. Deacon's Meetings minutes, 4 vols., 1889 - 1961
4. Chalmers' Hall Mission Committee minutes, 2 vols., 1907 - 1957
5. Finance Committee minutes, 2 vols., 1885 - 1904
6. Accounts, 2 vols., 1922 - 1952
7. Miscellaneous papers, 1 vol., 1 box, 1871 - 1974
AdminHistory The church was opened for worship on 23rd October 1872, having formerly been in Claremont Grove, although the lecture hall, which was built first, opened for public worship on 30th January 1872. The building was closed in November 1974, and a new church was built on the site, the Union Presbyterian Church of England, Fountains Road, joining with Westminster Road to form a United Church.

After 1972 the church's denominational title changed to United Reformed Church because of the union of the Presbyterian and Congregational Churches.
Extent 18 vols., 1 box
AccessConditions Access will be granted to any accredited reader

Jan

Maybe they didn't do marriages there, thanks both of you

Mary