Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I am searching for birth reference numbers for my great great grandfather JOHN HENRY ALBERT TUTTLE. On the 1871 England Census, His is listed as JOHN TOOTLE - born abt 1822 in CHORLEY, Lancashire.
Civil Parish: PRESTON, Ecclesiastical Parish: ST THOMAS, Town: PRESTON. Other family members listed: MARGARET A TOOTLE: 13,
MARY ELLEN TOOTLE: 8 and RICHARD TOOTLE: 5 (Richard was my great grandfather (born 12 October 1865).
JOHN TUTTLE (listed as a widower on his Marraige Certificate) remarried on 7 th July 1863 to ELISABETH THOMAS.
JOHN TUTTLE'S father is listed on the 1863 Certificate as JOHN TODD TUTTLE - Physician.
I cannot find any record on earlier census records for JOHN TUTTLE that matches the above children or the Ecclesiastical Parish.
Many thanks.
1 Denise :

My mistake! Got the wrong John Tuttle in the IGI. Post content removed.
Dickiesam

Hi and welcome to the forum

Civil registration didn't begin until 1837 so you won't find a birth for him, prior to this date baptisms are what may give you the most information.

There are quite a number of John Tootle[el]/Tuttles on the IGI but none in Lancashire with father John, at about the right age.

His father's name John Todd Tuttle is uncommon and I'd hoped to have found an entry for either his birth or marriage, but online I don't see one unfortunately.

I would be curious to know the details from his earlier marriage, to confirm what you already know, I assume you have Elisabeth Thomas's name from the birth certificate of your direct ancestor. If we don't find a definite lead then, although it would mean more expense my suggestion would be to discover who his first wife was by means of the birth certificate of Margaret Ann Tootell Q2 1857 Chorley 8e 407.

Could you tell us the addresses and occupations given on the marriage certificate that you have? and witnesses

Still looking.

Hi

So John Tuttle Tootell etc.. married for a second time to an Elizabeth Thomas..in 1863 Liverpool...

the family you have in Preston on the 1871 must be wrong...

Richard Tuttle is in Everton in 1871

1871 53 Rokerby St Everton St Timothy

Head Joseph Bentley age 50 Engine Driver b Blackrod Lancs
wife Margaret age 46 b Ruthin Wales WET NURSE..
Lodger Richard Tuttle SPELT TUBBLE.. age 5 b Lpool
Loder Eliza Millinchamp age 7
Lodg Frederick Millinchamp age 4
and a couple of other elder men..

so this Margaret takes in young infants..

Do you have Richards birth cert as you need to confirm where he was born PRESTON or LIVERPOOL... did he have any brothers or sisters you know of..


xx

You have put the cat among the pigeons Colette!

Many thanks for your replies to my query on John Henry Albert Tuttle.
The further information you requested is as follows:
John Tuttle's Marriage to Elisabeth Thomas took place at The Parish Church, Liverpool. Witnesses were William Pattinson and Tabitha Thomas
(Tabitha was Elisabeth's sister) Elisabeth's father was David Thomas- listed as a Porter. John Tuttle was listed as a Rubber Worker but there was no occupation listed for Elisabeth. John's father (John Todd Tuttle) was listed as a Physician.
Richard Lloyd Tuttle was born at 12 Doncaster St, Liverpool - Father listed as John Henry Albert Tuttle- General Labourer) and Mother was Sarah Barlow. Richard lived all his life in Liverpool and died on 21 December 1951 in Liverpool. I don't know if Richard had any brothers or sisters.
Regards -1Denise

Colette has done some research on this but wondered if she was confused. I think she is right as if Richard's birth was in Liverpool it's unlikely that the family you have in Preston is the correct one ....

She started by finding some information about the family for around about 1910-1912 and worked back from there.

Go for it Colette.

Hi Denise you say Richard Lloyd Tuttle's mother was Sarah Barlow.. that was his wifes name ???? can you tell us who his mother was.. it should be Elizabeth A Thomas..

Around about 1910-12

has Richard living in Marlborough Rd with him are his children...John, Robert, Sarah & Elizabeth and a John Perks aged 28 b Lpool who is listed as Richard's brother..

Going back to 1891 Great Homer St..we have.

Gilbert Robinson age 37 b Lpool Marine Fireman..
Wife Elizabeth A age 37 b Lpool
Step Son Joseph Perks age 16
Step Son John Perks age 10 *****
Step Dau Frances Perks age 8
Son Gilbert Robinson age 5
Dau Mary A Robinson age 2
Dau Elizabeth A Robinson age 2 days

1901 one more daughter Margaret b 1894

marriage Gilbert Robinson to Elizabeth A Perks 1888 Lpool

marriage John Perks to Elizabeth A Tuttle nee Thomas Hulme Manchester 1879

Marriage John Tuttle to Elizabeth Thomas Lpool 1863

1881 Wakefield St Lpool

John VERKS spelt wrong age 36 b Lpool Porter
Wife Elizabeth A age 27 b Lpool
Son Thomas Perks age 7
Son Joseph Perks age 5
Son John Perks age 4 months

so this Elizabeth A is the mother of John Perks who claims to be your Richard Tuttle's brother well half brother..in 1911..and is living with him

What i cant get my head round is Elizabeth A's age this one claims to have been born c 1854...where as the Elizabeth A Thomas was born Wales c 1842.

So we have an Elizabeth A Tuttle formaly Thomas marrying a John Perks...which makes sense...if this is the right lady..why is her daughter Elizabeth A with her family and why is Richard with a wet nurse..aged 5..

Elizabeth A Tuttle Richards sister her husband Thomas Webb..was a Rubber works foreman..

I am a bit confused


xx

Meant to say

In 1881 Richard Tuttle is in Pendlebury Lancashire nr Manchester

Head Thomas Gorton age 40 Miller b Manchester
Wife Alice age 47 b Chorley
Richard Tuttle age 15 b Lpool

which makes sense if his mother Elizabeth A remarried in Hulme in 1879..because i wondered why he was not in Liverpool and why Elizabeth A remarried in Hulme not Liverpool.

xx

Reply from 1Denise

Hi Colette,
My apologies, Richard Lloyd Tuttle's mother was Elisabeth (spelt with an "s"on the marriage certificate) Thomas - Elisabeth's age was listed as full age.
Richard's married Sarah Barlow on 27/2/1889 at St Matthew's Church, Liverpool. Richard and Sarah had 5 children - John Richard, born 1889. Albert Henry, born 1891 ( would say that these two boys were named after their grandfather - John Henry Albert Tuttle), Elizabeth, born 1895,
Sarah, born 1892 and Robert born 1897 (my father)
Sarah Barlow (daughter of Robert Barlow) was born in 1868 and died in childbirth on 21/1/1898 aged 30.
John Richard married Mary E Cummins, I am still looking into the marriage of Albert Henry) and my father married Hannah Robson in 1922.
There is an Elizabeth ELLEN Tuttle born in Liverpool in 1895, but I haven't applied for a birth certificate yet, so I don't know if she is the one listed above.
Elisabeth Tuttle (nee Thomas) was listed as a spinster when she married John Tuttle in 1863, I am getting very confused, are you saying that Elisabeth Tuttle remarried - firstly to John Perks in 1879 and then again to Gilbert Robinson in 1888 - how would I find out if and when she divorced John Tuttle? What a busy lady Elisabeth appears to have been!!
Kind Regards - Denise

And Dickiesam's response

Hi Denise,
In the 1901, the Elizabeth E Tuttle born in 1895 has a widowed father Richard L Tuttle aged 35. Sounds like the right one to me. Her mother therefore appears to have died giving birth to the youngest child listed in the household, Robert.
RG13 Piece: 3413 - Folio: 85 - Page: 77.

Dickiesam

Hello Mary, thanks for sorting out the posts.

Hi again Denise,
Re: Are you saying that Elisabeth Tuttle remarried - firstly to John Perks in 1879 and then again to Gilbert Robinson in 1888 - how would I find out if and when she divorced John Tuttle?

It is highly unlikely that Elizabeth divorced. The procedure of divorce back then was a very expensive business and well beyond the pocket of the working-class. Divorce became 'easier' in the early 20th century when cases could be heard in a local court instead of in London but the quick cheap divorce did not exist until the late 1940s when the courts were almost overwhelmed by the surge of wartime marriages that, having seemed a good idea at the time, ended in disaster.

It was not that unusual for a person to lie about their status. And several times I have found a woman simply changed her surname to that of her partner and there was no marriage. 5 such cases in my lot!

Dickiesam

Hi Denise

John Tuttle has proberbly died..Elizabeth remarries John Perks in Hulme by Manchester 1879..this would make sense with Richard Lloyd living in Pendlebury in 1881..his mother must have been in the area maybe working she meets John Perks they marry then move back to Liverpool she has 3 possibly 4 kids to John Perks and he then dies.. she remarries Gilbert Robinson and has 4 more kids to him..

Otherwise why would John Perks be classed as Richard Lloyd Tuttle's brother in 1911..maybe the marriage of Gilbert to Elizabeth A will give an answer if David is her father...

Only thing bothering me is Elizabeth A 's age its 10 years out..but everything else seems to fit..as for going back with John Henry Albert Tuttle he seems to have come from Space haaaaaaaaaaaa..

unless his origins are Irish,

I found a John & Elizabeth LUTLE in 1871 in Liverpool but says she was born Ireland..so i am not sure its them...they were living in Wakefield St Everton it also had a Bridget MARR there widow down as mother...John was 31 b Lpool and Elizabeth 25 b Ireland..

Cant seem to find this John going backwards or forwards..


xx

Hi Denise i was looking for Gilbert Robinson and Elizabeth in 1911..and could not see them..

But then i found them 65 Bold St, same address as 1901..

Gilbert was down as Robert ..but its deffo Gilbert..age 57 Elizabeth age 57 Daughters Mary age 22 & Margaret age 17.

Elizabeth A has been consistant with her birth year from 1891-1911..so born c 1854

This has me flumexed as to John Perks being Richard Lloyd Tuttles brother..

as we know Elizabeth Thomas was born c 1842.

Has anyone any ideas

xx

Hi Denise

sorry for so many questions ..

what was John Tuttle's address in 1863 from marriage cert.. ??

also i noticed in 1911 Elizabeth & Gilbert put down married for 40 years thta means 1871.. which is totaly wrong and they say they have had 14 kids and 6 are left alive..8 have died..

Gilbert & Elizabeth A married in 1888 so 13 years they have been married.. could it be she has put down in total all her kids .

Elizabeth A Tuttle 1864
Richard Lloyd Tuttle 1865...

GAP

Sarah Elizabeth Perks 1872 bap Christ Church Hunter St,, father John Perks mother Elizabeth A. dies age 1
Thomas Perks 1873 bap St Peters
Joseph Perks 1875..
John James Perks 1881
Fanny Jane Perks 1883 known as Frances..

Gilbert Robinson 1887 died 1915 aged 28
Mary Ann Robinson born 1888 bap 1890 Christ Church Hunter St
Elizabeth A Robinson 1891
Margaret Robinson born Gordon Berwick Scotland 8th Jully 1894 Bap St Peters Lpool 19th July 1894

I make that 11 kids possbily more Perks or Tuttle kids who may have died...so 14 kids maybe correct..

John Perks must have died 1883-1886. Elizabeth meets Gilbert and has Little Gilbert & possibly Mary Ann out of wedlock to Gilbert.. hence no baptism for little Gilbert and a later baptism for Mary Ann.

xx

Hi Denise i am now going to Scrap GILBERT ROBINSON from the story ....


Having found in 1881 27 Anglesea Rd Walton Lpool

John Perks age 45 b Glossip Gen Labourer..
Elizabeth 38 b Abergeley Wales
Son John B Perks 8 months old

1891 Linton St Kirkdale

John Perks age 55 b South Wales aber????? Railway Porter
Elizabeth age 45 b Aberg?? North Wales
Son John Benjamin age 10 b Flixton Lancashire comes under Barton reg district..
Dau Mary Catherine age 4 b Lpool

phewwwwwwwwwwwwwww.. went wrong with Gilbert throught i was going mad..so Elizabeth only married twice.

so from what i can gather 4 kids all in all for Elizabeth...


xx

Hi

wondering about a John Todd Tuttle born 1801 in Connecticut USA..Physician.

Married Sarah Rogers 1824 New Have Connecticut..

His Obit says his parents were Bethel Tuttle & Hannah Rebecca English, it also says he has 4 children and out lived them all..his wife Sarah died before him..

Looking on IGI i see 5 children sadly no John.

Julia A 1825 died 1825

George William 1826 married 1851 died 1856..

Margaret b 1828 Windham Connecticut

Ida 1844 died 1884

Sonia J 1846 died 1848

Louisa J 1847 died 1848

all in New Haven Connecticut

theres a huge gap from Margaret born 1828 to Ida born 1844..so i am wondering if there are any more children for this John Todd Tuttle.

The obituary was wrong saying 4 kids when there were 6 so maybe there were more.

How many John Todd Tuttle's could there have been who were Physicians...

Another thought i had was what if John Henry Albert Tuttle was a secret child..John Todd Tuttle maybe he came over to England at some point and had an affair... its speculation..but seen as though we cant find anything on him it makes you wonder...

xx

Hi Everyone,
Firstly, my apologies to Mary A - I will press the reply button in future.
Re John Tuttle - I will apply for his daughter's birth certificate and hopefully that will shed some light on the subject.
You asked about his Marriage certificate - both he and Elisabeth are listed as full age. John's address is virtually unreadable - but it looks like St Thomas Street and Elisabeth's is Doncaster St - and as they were married in Liverpool I presume these streets are from there - would you happen to know if there such a street as St Thomas St?.
I notice that you mentioned the Perks family in 1891 - I didn't realise that this Census was available, or do you access it elsewhere - also is there a 1901 Census available?.
Is it possible to search online for Baptisims?
Collette, you may have struck paydirt with John Todd Tuttle - as you say, how many John Todd Tuttle's (Physician) can there be.
Regards - Denise

I would suspect the address is Sir Thomas Street, still in Liverpool now in a busy commercial area. Use http://maps.google.co.uk/ and you will see it's location.

There are a number of online subscription sites where you can search the censuses such as, www.ancestry.co.uk www.findmypast.com www.genesreunited.com The only freely available census is the 1881 which you can access for yourself at www.familysearch.org. This is the site that holds the most online baptisms, although it's not complete. http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/ also has some RC baptisms and working on more.

Hi Denise

Is there a house number in Sir Thomas St..we could check the 1861 census and see who was living there..

See what else i can dig up on this Connecticut John Todd Tuttle..