Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello
This is my first post, but have been researching for 15 years mostly at the local LSD church library in Australia and recently the very welcome Genealogist.co.uk search on line website and I am wondering how many marriages were registered around 1872.
I have a certified copy of entry of birth for George Williams born 10 Oct 1872 father George and mother nee Elizabeth Ashworth in Islington, but cannot find a marriage for George and Elizabeth. The only Elizabeth Ashworth I found was a marriage dated 1863, which turned out to be the wrong Elizabeth when I received the certificate.
The 1881 census shows Elizabeth born Liverpool in 1846 and the only Elizabeth Ashworth I have found is 1851 age 6. 1861 age 15 servant born Liverpool. There is no Elizabeth in the 1871 census when she would have been 25. I wonder if George was here second marriage, leaving an almost impossible search

Hi and welcome to the forum, I hope we can help.

For the benefit of those wishing to help this is the 1881 census.

2 House 1 Court, Mount Vernon Road, West Derby, Liverpool
All except George born in Liverpool
George Williams Head M 34 Paper Hanger Wales
Elizabeth Wife M 35
George son 8
Annie daur 6
Mar daur 3
Fanny daur 2
RG11; Piece: 3701; Folio: 93; Page: 33

In my experience a birth certificate would often give the mother's name as "formerly" if they had previously been married as well as the maiden name, that's not to say it would happen every time. Also most of the time, a wife would have remarried using her previous married name and so LancashireBMD might have her listed with both names.

It is a common name, are you positive that you have the correct birth certificate? and do you have any for his siblings?

Do you have young George's marriage certificate? what details are on this? does it state whether his father is deceased ?

I notice that they are living in West Derby by 1881, so they have moved areas. Does George's occupation match that of paper hanger on the birth certificate? Can you please give the addresses given on the birth certificate.

Can you give details of the marriage certificate that you have, and why you believe it to be incorrect.

Can you also let us know if you have the family in 1891 and 1901 censuses, if you have, please give details in a similar manner as I have done above, including references.

I know it sounds like a lot of questions, but we do like to see all around a picture.

Lo Mary
I'm glad I pressed the refresh button before I posted.
You beat me to it..
and the questions too.

Well done

Tina

Could they have married in Wales?
As they are both of the same age in census I doubt Elizabeth would have married before?

1891 a number of George jr as boarders.
Mary in workhouse & Fanny in cottage homes.
Can't find Geo snr or Elzbth.
Perhaps Jimdene could give us more info?
Cheers

Tina

I suspected it would be our Fanny who was in the Cottage Homes, but decided not to muddy the waters too early in case Jim has any more information. Also think it worth while checking the records for the Cottage Homes for the admittance of Fanny.

I wondered about Wales but the registration should still be in the main GRO list as it covers both England and Wales.

As they are both of the same age in census I doubt Elizabeth would have married before?

we all know the unexpected can happen don't we

Still curious about the details from that 1863 certificate.

Thank you very much you kind people for the prompt and interesting replies, and to Mary for sending the spreadsheet and taking the trouble to look up and show the 1881 census.
Searching for George Williams in Liverpool has always been daunting and that 1881 census was never conclusive for me until I found in the 1911 census son George Williams and wife Ellen nee Hinds (another elusive relative} with my Dad William and niece Eva Peers. Certificates have verified that Eva was the daughter of Sarah Frances, Fanny, age 2, brother of George 8 years in the 1881 census. I have the marriage cert showing Sarah Frances Williams married William Henry Peers in the presence of George and Ellen Williams.
George senior was born in 8 Mansfield street Islington 10 Oct 1872, father George born in Wales according to the 1881 census, mother Elizabeth Williams formerly Ashworth
The only George Williams I could find in the 1871 thegenealogist.co.uk census born in Wales age 24 was in Ashton in Makerfield born Denbighshire. The census for Denbighshire not promising having 6 people with that name between the ages of 22 and 26
Elizabeth Ashworth 35 in the 1881 census would be born around 1846.
1851 census Elizabeth age 6 grand daughter, head James Ashworth age 62 coachman
1861 census Elizabeth age 15 servant 2 Mansfield street
1871 census no Elizabeth in Liverpool, but likely candidate Elizabeth Williams 25 servant 253 Netherfield north road
The only marriage I came across searching thegenealogist.co.uk from 1861 to 1878 was 1st Nov 1863 Elizabeth Ashworth minor married Henry Martin minor Painter Parish church Liverpool.
In 1871 there is a Henry Martin age 28 Plasterer, Elizabeth Martin age 26 (correct age for the Elizabeth I am searching for) with 3 children under the age of 10. However would you agree unlikely to have married George and had another child within the next 2 years

Mary sorry I didn’t answer your questions
George was born 10 Oct 1872 at 8 Mansfield Street sub District Islington.
Father George was a Dock Labourer. Mother Elizabeth Williams formerly Ashworth
The Elizabeth Ashworth in the 1861census age 15 servant born Liverpool and living at 2 Mansfield looked correct until I received a copy of marriage certificate 1st Nov 1863 Elizabeth Ashworth minor Spinster of Vauxhall road father James Ashworth Coachman married Henry Martin minor, Painter
In the 1871 census there is a Henry Martin age 28 Plasterer and Elizabeth Martin age 26 with 3 children under the age of 10
1891 census
In 1891 George senior was deceased (I don’t have his death certicate)
48 Hawdon Street West Derby
Elizabeth Williams 46 Mother Housekeeper born Liverpool
George son 18 Painter born Liverpool
Mary E daughter 13 born Liverpool
Frances daughter 11 born Liverpool
Elizabeth daughter 9 born Liverpool
Joseph son 7 born Liverpool
Folio reference RG12/2996/F

25 Dec 1894 George Williams age 22 Painter of 12 Bridport St..Father George Williams Painter married Ellen Hinds 18 Spinster of 82 Lime St.. father James Hinds Marriner
I have been unable to find any trace of a James Hinds that would suit, possibly because of his trade, or of the birth of Ellen Hinds around 1876.
My 100 year Aunt living in Perth W Australia seems to remember that she had step brothers and sisters

1901 Census
2 in 4 Court Abram St. South Everton
George Williams age 28 General Labourer born Liverpool
Ellen wife age 24 born Liverpool
Elizabeth daughter age 2 born Liverpool
Folio Ref: RG13/3482/-F126

around about 1910/12
8 Boycott St Everton District West Derby
George Williams age 38 House Painter born Liverpool
Ellen wife age 34 born Liverpool
Elizabeth daughter age 12 born Liverpool
George son age 9 born Liverpool
Joseph son 8 born Liverpool
Frederick son age 5 born Liverpool
William son age 2 born Liverpool.
Doris daughter age 1 month born Liverpool
Peers Eva niece age 7 born Liverpool
My father was William

As I see it, the whole thing hinges on the birth certificate. Just to go over a couple of points that we have found

George was born 10 Oct 1872 at 8 Mansfield Street sub District Islington.
Father George was a Dock Labourer. Mother Elizabeth Williams formerly Ashworth

1881
George Williams Head M 34 Paper Hanger Wales

25 Dec 1894 George Williams age 22 Painter of 12 Bridport St..Father George Williams Painter married Ellen Hinds

1911
George Williams age 38 House Painter born Liverpool

So father George was a paper hanger or painter, whichever, he was decorating houses yes? and as young George grew old enough to work he also became a painter, perhaps while father was hanging paper son was painting the skirtings.

So how come father was a dock labourer when son George was born? this is what doesn't sit right.

The birth certificate you have you say is a "certified copy" which presumably means that you ordered it through the GRO, based on his calculated age from the censuses? This name is, I believe too common. and I would doubt that this is the correct George. Even if this George couldn't be found in subsequent censuses, there are deaths between ages 1 - 4 for half a dozen George Williams born 1872 that could be the son of Elizabeth Ashworth.

Before clouding the issue with the possibility that Elizabeth married Henry Martin, if it were me I would want to take it step by step and obtain confirmation from other family members before I would be able to accept Elizabeth's name. Sarah Frances is far less common than George and much easier to pinpoint.

You could post another request headed up "Liverpool Record Office Look up please" and if one of our kind forum members was able to get to the Record Office they might be able to check out for you Fanny's entry into the Cottage Homes, otherwise, I would suggest that you contact the
Liverpool Record Office and ask them if they could do a quick look up for the details and there may be confirmation of either her birth date or her mother's name in the records.

Alternatively there are only a couple of Sarah Frances Williams born at the right time in Liverpool, unfortunately both of them in the West Derby registration area so not able to pin down the correct one that way. If you contact the GRO and request the certificate with the proviso that the parents names are George and Elizabeth (without giving her surname), hopefully you will get the correct one.

A little hint if you decide to do this, if you ordered the incorrect one they will refund part of your money, then you would have to order the other. If however, you ordered the certificate from the Liverpool Register Office enclosing your cheque, they would probably find the correct one for you, however using them is slower than the GRO.

Hi

The address Ellen gave in Dec 1894 was 82 Limes St directory of 1894 has Sowerby & Co Auctioneers there.. unless she was lodging above..

can only see one in Birkdale as servant in 1891..most of the Hinds around Liverpool are Tin Plate workers...also can anyone see a possible birth reg for her in Liverpool c 1876 as i am thinking maybe she wasn't actualy born in Liverpool...

Thanks for the reply Mary
I don’t have too much of a problem with George snrs occupation as Dock Labourer in 1872, if he had just arrived from Wales or the only one age 24 from Wales in the 1871 census at Ashton in Makerfield. I am not confident that I can get any further going back to Wales with a Williams surname. It is possible that he wasn’t a Painter and Decorator before arriving in Liverpool, but unskilled and took the first job available. I have a certified copy of son George’s eldest son’s Birth, would you believe also George, where he has an occupation of Foundry Laborer in 1901. There is not much to go on here, Ellen Williams formerly Hinds living at 2 in 4 Court Abram Street Everton South

I believe that the residents of 42 Shenston West Derby 1901 census Folio Ref: RG13/3495/~F93 can confirm that George and Elizabeth of the 1881 census are the Williams family I seek:
Annie Williox (probably Willcox) wife age 25 is Annie Williams age 6 in 1881 census
Elizabeth Williams grandmother 55………..is Elizabeth age 46 in the 1891 census and Elizabeth age 35 in the 1881 census
Elizabeth Williams age 19………….age 9 in the 1891 census..
Sarah Francis age 20………………..age11 in the 1891 census…Fanny in the 1881

I have a copy from the GRO of the marriage in 14 June 1903 between Sarah Francis Williams 23 and William Henry Peers both of 47 Nesfield street in the presence of George and Ellen Williams. This address is mentioned in a letter I received from my Aunt
Niece Eva Peers in the 1911 census which contains my Dad William Williams is the tie back to the 1881 census through Sarah Francis Peers nee Williams.
Would you agree that this is a direct connection to Elizabeth Ashworth?
Just a thought, I wonder if the Elizabeth Williams age 25 in the 1871 census, servant at 253 Netherfield north road RG10/3824/~F76 is Elizabeth nee Ashworth. The age is exact.
I suppose we will never know and I don’t think she appeared as Elizabeth Williams age 15 in the 1861 census

Hi

1901 42 Shenstone St West Derby

Head William Henry Wilcox 22 Railway Worker b Lpool
Wife Annie age 25 b Lpool
Son Will Henry age 4 b Lpool
Dau Emma age 2 b Lpool
Son Alexander age 2 b Lpool
Grandma Elizabeth Williams Widow age 55 b Lpool
Dau Sarah Frances age 20 Dom Serv b Lpool
Dau Elizabeth age 19 Dom Serv b Lpool

at least we know who Annie William's George's sister married

sadly Annie dies in 1908 aged 32...by 1911 her husband William Henry is living with his parents in Dodge St Edge Hill.. William & Emma..their surname is spelt WILLCOX as is William Henry's marriage to Annie Williams.1896

William Henry & Annie had 3 sons together..

William Henry b 1897
Alexander G B 1900
Christopher C b 1906

Appologies for not noticing you had confirmed Annie & William H Willcox's marriage etc..


I did see two sons marriage on the Wirral .

Christopher C & Amelia Coath 1930

Alexander G & Violet E Holmes 1928.

Could be their father moved over to the wirral he may even have possibly remarried..so could be more children for William Henry Willcox...




xx

Hello Collette
Thanks for the reply. Yes I found 82 Lime street not to be Ellen Hinds residence unless as you say she was living in another part.
Some of these old houses were named back of.
When I checked the street directory for 18 Bridport street in 1894, for George Williams, he must have been a lodger because another name was listed.
Coincidentally there was a Hinds family living in the street. In the tin trade as you found the Hinds to be.
I have just about given up finding Ellen Hinds, it would seem she had another name at some time, as my Aunt said she thinks Ellen had step brothers and sisters.
If only we had asked more questions of our parents when they were alive, but then I was only interested in number one. As Dad would say, "pull up the ladder Jack I'm inboard"
When we lived in Kent during the war, Mum took us kids up to Liverpool to pick up my eldest sister, who would you believe went there to get away from the bombing.
I recollect my Aunt taking us to see an old women bed ridden in a place out of Dickens Oliver Twist, slums that is not mansions. She would have been a relative. The Aunt who was a splended help recalled Grandma Ellen had a cousin named Billy Beasly. Should I start a new post using this name do you think

Thanks Colette
That is very interesting

Hi Jim

Its looking like Ellens Mother may have remarried...we shall work on that maybe we can find an answer..she should be showing up in the 1881 census....if dad James has died we wont find them together....

Christopher Cornelius Willcox who married Amelia Coath had a few children..

Ronald H b Wirral 1931

Richard C b Wirral 1934

Terence P b Wirral 1937

Christopher b Wirral 1943

Looking to that dad Christopher did a Stint in the Army as no kids 1938-1942.

As these children may still be living if i find anything on them i will send you a personal message.....

xx

jimdene wrote: Would you agree that this is a direct connection to Elizabeth Ashworth?

To be honest - No. It is a direct connection to an "Elizabeth" yes, but I have seen nothing except the birth certificate, which is one of a few possibles, that indicates what Elizabeth's maiden name was, which is why I believe you should have confirmation from some other less common line of enquiry.

Have to say I agree with Mary on this one. There is no proven link to an Elizabeth Ashworth just to an Elizabeth.

You need to get the birth certificate of Sarah Frances Williams and see who her parents are. There are only 2 born at the time you want so if you stipulate father George you should be OK.

Hilary
Ed Officer

Thank you Colette, Mary and Hilary for the replies. PM on the way to Colette.
I will send away for other birth certificates.

I have my grandfather George Williams’death certificate Colette, but no birth date shown.
Died 9 May 1923 age 50 (the birth certificate I have is dated 10th Oct 1872).
95 Beacon Lane Everton SE.
Journeyman House Painter
Informant: Ellen Williams widow of deceased

Colette mentioned obtaining names about interred at graves. Is this information available and who would I write to, assuming the cemetery is that closest to Beacon Lane Everton

The Liverpool Record Office holds most of the records for cemeteries and burials, unfortunately you need to know which one to check and the obvious one isn't always the case.

We have compiled a list of some http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... t=cemetery

There is also a complete set of microfiches for the RC burials, identifying whether it took place in Ford, Yew Tree or Ainsdale.

Allerton Cemetery always held the complete list of burials for all cemeteries and would do a search, unfortunately the charge for this was £10 per cemetery per year.