Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi everyone,

I am new to this site so hope I get everything right.

I have a James YATES who married a Margaret TAYLOR in 1838 at St. Nicholas, Liverpool. On the 1841 Census they are in Liverpool with a son, Thomas [1] who I think died later that year. The family emigrated to Australia in 1841, arriving January 1842, but Thomas was not on the passenger list.

Basically, I am trying to research back from James and Margaret. I have been told James' father was William and Margaret's was Richard, but I suspect one or the other was a Thomas. Has anyone come across this family who could give me more details before I send for a certificate? I may have the wrong connection. I would be extremely grateful.

Cheers, Jaycee

Hi

How many more children did they have and what were their names ???



xx

Hi Jaycee and welcome to the forum,
It is never a good idea to rely on information not backed up with documentation. With regard to the fathers of James and Margaret it would be best to get the marriage cert.
Marriages Mar 1838: Taylor, Margaret to Yates, James - Liverpool - 20 - 199.

Good luck,
Dickiesam

Hi and welcome to the forum.

You are lucky that the couple married after civil registration began in 1837, so the information from a marriage certificate will be considerably more than what is given earlier.

Dickiesam is quite right that we would be hesitant about proceeding further back without knowledge of the father's details, but as the marriage has been transcribed on www.familysearch.org.uk and you are aware that it took place in Saint Nicholas, Liverpool, the cheapest way is to check the entry in the Parish Register, a copy of which is held on microfilm at the Liverpool Record Office.

Noticing where you live it might be that you don't get to Liverpool often so if you were to request a look up on here, if anybody is visiting the Record Office they may be willing to check the register for you.

Hi Jaycee
I'm sure you will get some good info here
As Mary suggested, you could place a new post
"LRO look up please marriage Yates"
then list all the details you have from the crew including the qtr which Dickiebird found as well as church etc.
In 1841 they are all born Lancs, James 22 is a cooper, perhaps taking after his father?
Ann's Place Lpl
Margret 23 & Thos.
IGI has a bapt at St Nick's 3/10/1819
for a James father Wm mother Elizabeth.
It would also be interesting to look this up & see if Wm was a cooper?

Cheers
Tina

The marriage you wanted

26 March 1838 at St Nicholas Church Liverpool

James Yates Minor bachelor cooper of Down Street father William yates ropemaker
married
Margaret X Taylor (made her mark) full age spinster of Banastre St father Richard Taylor Porter

witnesses
Edward Lovatt
Margaret X Young (made her mark)

Hope this helps

Hilary
Ed Officer

PS What you were told appears to be correct!

Well done E.O for doing look up
btw there's a Richard Taylor in 1841 census aged 50 but looking at census I'd say he is only 5mnoths.

The 1819 baptism could be James could be him as he's a minor on marriage cert.
Margaret full age, this could be her
bapt St Nicks to Richard & Ann Taylor
Margaret 16/10/1814 also John 1816.

Tina

marriage Richard Taylor Anne Burgess

22/5/1814 Richard's occupation - Carter taken from a disc Jan has doesnt give witness names. you need the full enrty for that..



xx

Thanks Colette. Every little bit of information gathered expands the picture.

Jaycee

Hi

what happened to little Martha i take it she didnt go to Australia with them..

xx

Hi

Possible marriage for Martha Taylor

to Edward Finney St Nicolas 1849 Dec Quarter

Reason i am mentioning this marriage is where they live in 1851 Marybone.. which was by Banastre St and Anns Place which doesnt show up in my A-Z Edwardian directory but i know it was by Milton St.. which is also by Marybone & Banastre St...

so good candidates.. also Edwards occupation apprentice Cooper ( maybe to James Yates....

1841 Edward Finney b Lpool age 21 App Cooper
Martha b Lpool age 21
Dau Matilda b Lpool age 6 months..

2 more sons born to this marriage

William Finney 1852 bap St Peters
Edward Finney 1854 bap St Peters

Death March Quarter 1858 Martha Finney

Marriage Sept Quarter 1958 Edward Finney - Jane Peach.

I know it seems soon but if Martha died in the January it would be a few months till he remarried Jane.

1861 1&2 house 3 court Roscoe Place..

Edward Finney age 30 Cooper b Lpool
Jane age 27 b Lpool
Son William age 9 b Lpool dau Sarah A age 7 b Lpool

this makes Sarah A ...Martha's daughter..other child Edward must have died...

Its only guess work.. as i say but a good possibility for Martha Taylor... maybe the marriage at St Nics would be a good idea to see if her dad was Richard......


Edward Finney dies in 1863 Cooper of this town aged 32....
Jane remarried Henry Pollington 1864 St Simons.. they have a couple of sons who also die as infants.....she lives till 1897 as a widow.....

Many thanks Colette.

I have an IGI record for a baptism of a Martha Taylor, 08/06/1829 at St. Peter, Liverpool, with parents Richard and Ann.
As there were records for other children also named with parents Richard and Ann but found on the censuses as a different family, I was trying to ascertain whether or not Martha was Margaret's sister. I am now fairly sure they were sisters. It helps when you know the area. I do not know Liverpool at all.

The information on her marriage, children and death is great.

Jaycee

According to the person on whose behalf I am researching, the parents of James Yates were William Yates, ropemaker, and Elizabeth Moore, married 27/07/1818 at Walton-on Hill. He reckons they have long roots in Liverpool, but as I am not in Liverpool it makes it difficult for me to follow up. Do none of the parish registers give any parents names at marriages around this time? If this is the case it will be difficult to get back.

He also seems to think the Anne Burgess who married Richard Taylor was born in Covehithe, Suffolk but I tend to think it is either Ann bapt. 20/08/1797 at St Nicholas Liverpool, parents John and Ann [nee Risley] or Ann born 11/08/1786, bapt. 01/01/1798 also St. Nicholas, Liverpool, parents William and Esther [nee Cash] I'd plump for the first one as their first son seems to have been a John.

As for Richard I would plump for the IGI record born 20/09/1794, bapt. 19/10/1794 St Peter, Liverpool, parents William and Martha [ nee ???]
as opposed to the one bapt. 16/11/1797 St. Nicholas, Liverpool, parents Richard and Nancy [nee Byrom]. This assumption merely from the name Martha. I know assumptions should be backed up, but hunches can be useful.

Anyone any thoughts on these?

Jaycee

At that date you may get a couple of witnesses and possibly a note as to whether the bride and groom lived "in parish" or not. So no, you aren't going to get his father's name from a marriage certificate.

You are now into the realms of searching alternative sources - Wills would be a good start since there is likely to be a central index at a local record office. Some suggestions have been collected here http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... ight=wills

Check the National Archives site, to see if there is mention of the name in the right location. Rent books, Directories - street and trade, perhaps the son followed in the same trade as the father and were in the Freemens indexes, old newspapers.

There are many sources that might give some clues further back than just marriage certificates.

It would be helpful if you gave all the information you have. I looked up the marriage that you just had the date for,(James Yates).This gave James' father as William a ropemaker. You now indicate that that fact was already known. Does your contact have that marriage certificate?

To really investigate this further you need to spend sometime in Liverpool Record Office checking out possible baptisms and marriages. very often the entry will give an occupation for the groom or father(Baptisms). You need to check too many for this to be done by someone doing the odd look up. You also need to look at directories of the time as you have a good chance of finding them as they are ropemakers.

As Mary says you also need to investigate wills. Any wills before 1858 for someone in Liverpool would have been proved at Chester. These are held at Lancashire record office. They will copy a will for you but you need to know if there is one first. If you google lancashire wills index there is an online list which is not quite complete but could be used as a first step.

You could also look on www.lan-opc.co.uk as this has good transcriptions but again it is not complete. If you remember that no way everything you need is on the internet you'll get there in the end. Visiting Record Offices is part of the fun.

Have fun
Hilary
Ed Officer

jaycee wrote:According to the person on whose behalf I am researching,

I am wondering why this person hasn't become a member of the forum, they seem to have more information than you do, it's difficult to help when we don't have full details.

Hi Jaycee

I was at the Liverpool Record office yesterday and checked the marriage for Richard Taylor and Anne Burgess at St Annes. No fathers mentioned this early only thing that may help is that Richard was a Carter of this parish and Anne also of this parish. Witnesses were Mary Lewis and Thomas Holden.

The baptisms for Margaret Taylor and Martha Taylor both had the parents as Richard and Ann Taylor of Freemason Row, and he is now a labourer.


Hope this will be a help to you.

Eileen

Many thanks MaryA and Hilary.

Hilary, I did post the correct information that I had at the time. My contact has added extra bits since then. It is difficult for me too when I don't have full details and live so far away from the area of the country involved.

I told him at the outset I could only use the computer and that it would prove difficult, not to hold out too much hope. He is not willing to pay so I won't be travelling to Liverpool.

A few years ago I did a lot of research for him centred around Cumberland (as was then ) which is why he asked me this favour too.

I'll look on the links you have given but I fear he is going to have to accept that I cannot get any more via the computer.

I agree that visiting record offices is fun and I fail to understand why people are happy with someone else finding their information. Half the fun is finding your own relatives in the registers. Eureka moments are great!

I thank yourseles and the other good people who have helped. I have gained some extra information due to your efforts.

Cheers Jaycee

Many thanks Eileen,

This information would suggest that my original 'guess' of Margaret and Martha being sisters was correct.

Forgive my ignorance, or is it my memory, but who is Owen O'Hare?
I can't recall having him in my names anywhere.

Thanks again.

Jaycee

Sorry Jaycee

Had the Baptisms together on my list, Owen O'Hare was for another researcher, I will edit the post so as not to confuse others.

Eileen