Help confirming the identity of an unknown Mother

[johnlee]

Hello everyone.

I posted this information in a different thread about a related person but I think it may have got lost.

My Grandfather has passed away and I am trying to help my mum confirm the identity of his Mother. His mother gave him up at birth and he was raised by his Fathers mother.

My Grandfather was called John Alan McGregor and I do have a theory about his mother. I would like to stress this is a theory and i am very aware that these are not just names to be bandied about but somebody's family. Unfortunately it is difficult to find people without mentioning names.

My Grandfather is called John Alan McGregor born in Liverpool May 1926.

I searched only for John McGregor (minus the middle initial A and the birth month May) born in 1926 and in the results there is only one and he was born in May. The birth certificate says John A McGregor so it is very likely him. Apr-Jun 1926 8b 167 (i have sent off for the certificate)

The mothers maiden name on the certificate is Dimeck.

I searched the 1911 census for the surname Dimeck. There are only 9 Dimeck in the country in 1911 and they all live in the same house in Toxteth Park

Anabile 13
Anila 13
Carmen 9
George 44 (BORN: MALTA RESIDENT)
Gerard 6 weeks
Josaphine 2
Mary 40
Melita 7
Philip 4

I guessed that one of the females in this family could be the mother of John Alan McGregor 15 years later. (obviously many more Dimecks could have arrived by then so this is not a certainty)

When my grandfather was born Melita would have been 22, Carmen 24 and Josaphine 17. They would be the most likely candidates.

I searched for information on each of them in the hope that something might come up and found that a Carmen Dimeck married a John McGregor in Apr-Jun 1923 8b 252

It seemed like a huge coincidence to me that 3 years before my grandfather was born this marriage occurred and my grandfathers name is John Alan McGregor.

The other possibility is that there was another John A McGregor born in May 1926 and this is his birth certificate not my grandfathers but then that means there is not record for my grandfather. This seems very unlikely.

What do you think? Any advice or help greatly appreciated.

John

[johnlee]

In the previous thread Tina kindly offered this information:

Hi John
For the peeps

John McGregor oct-dec qtr 1930 Liverpool rego
Maiden Dimeck.

Donald H McGregor oct-dec qtr 1928 Lpl rego
Maiden Dimeck.

Mary A McGregor jul-sep qtr 1927 Lpl rego
Maiden Dimeck.

John A McGregor bn apr-jun qtr 1926 Lpl rego
Maiden Dimeck.

Angela McGregor bn apr-jun qtr 1924 Lpl rego
Maiden Dimeck.
More kiddies to 1940 which I won't list

Tina

[Tina]

Hi John
Could this be link posted by Gray?


Tina


http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... c&start=30

[MaryA]

I usually find a story of an abandoned child with family members more believeable if there are only one of them, yet this family seems to have a number of children.

It could be worth searching for these people to ask if they knew anything of your grandfather, some tips for searching for living people are http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=8154

[johnlee]

Thank you MaryA

This is quite a complicated story.

My grandfather was brought up my Mary Ann and Elijah Ashcroft (there is a thread about Elijah further down the forum)

Until last week my immediate family did not know my grandfathers real mother or father. They were told that his name John Alan McGregor was picked at random from a plaque above his hospital bed (the name of hospital donator). They were told that his mother gave him up at birth.

It was then confirmed a few days ago that his father was John Ashcroft, son of Elijah and Mary Ashcroft. We know my grandfather was raised in the house with all of Elijah and Mary's children and my grandfather would tell us that he remembered his dad having a blazing argument with the Ashcroft family before leaving the house never to return - my grandfaher was very young at the time; nobody in the family ever saw John Ashcroft again.

I looked up his birth certificate to try and find his mothers maiden name and this was confirmed to be Dimeck.

I then performed all of the searches above on the name Dimeck and found Carmen Dimeck who was married to a John McGregor!! This coincidence just seems too massive to me. The story that his name was chosen at random seemed possible but this seems a greater possibility.

Could his mother, who gave him up at birth, have been married? Could she have given birth pretending that her husband was the father and then given the child to his real father's family?

I am not sure what evidence to look for to prove this and I am not sure there even is any but if anyone has any advice it would be greatly appreciated.

If contacting living people from the Dimeck line is the only way to take this further then I am happy to leave it alone. I think it is unfair to ask people questions like that.

Thanks again for any help and please tell me if you think i am clutching at straws or if you think this theory is plausible.

[Tina]

Hi John
What interesting reading?
It looks as if Carmen had a child (while the old man was at sea perhaps?) to your John & handed the baby over to him & in turn, his parents.

I was looking in G.RU for a possible Dimeck contact.
Firstly need to find Carmen etc.
There is a baby born in 192? Carmen Dimeck nee Martin who sadly dies soon after. I guessed she would be the child of a brother to Carmen. Marriage for a Samuel G Dimeck to Alice Martin 1923. There's also a death for him making his birth year 1890.
Found him as Dimick in 1901 father Geo born Malta.
1911 they are all in Tox Park, Carmen is 9.

There is a person in GRU who has Saml listed, then a big gap to 1923.
Would you like me to contact them on your behalf?
All I would ask is for details of Saml's siblings.
Please let me know.

Cheers
Tina

[johnlee]

Hi Tina

It is funny you should mention Samuel Dimeck because another person who frequents this forum and is also related to the Elijah Ashcroft family sent me this information the other day - yet another coincidence!!!?????

Elijah Ashcrofts wife Mary Ann Cosgrove (who raised my Grandfather as her own but was in fact his Grandmother) - Her mother was called Letitia Martin (sometimes called Hester Martin.)

Letitia had a brother called James.
James had a son called Christopher Martin born 1860 in L.pool. Christopher Martin had a daughter called Alice Martin born 1898 L.pool. Alice Martin married SAMUEL G DIMECK in L.pool March 1923!! (8b 228)


So in 1923 John Ashcrofts 2nd cousin marries a man called Samuel Dimeck.

Samuel Dimeck has a sister called Carmen Dimeck who married a man called John McGregor also in 1923.

In 1926 my grandfather is born to John Ashcroft and an unknown mother (unknown to future generations at least).

My Grandfather who is called John Alan McGregor, even though his father is called John Ashcroft, has the maiden name Dimeck recorded on his passport.

There are a very, very small number of Dimeck females in the country in 1926.

This seems to me like another MASSIVE coincidence.

What do you think?

[Tina]

Well John, I had to read your post twice
Amazing!
We would say extended family today.
There must have been some obligation felt by Grannie because of her Martin connections do you think?
And Alice must have been friendly towards Carmen to name the baby who died after her.
I'll wait and see what the peepers here have to say

Tina

[Gray]

Hi Tina & John,


I realize that speculation in genealogy is not to be encouraged, however I am 99.9% convinced that Carmen Dimeck is the mother.
Possibly it is just a very strong 'feeling'.

I could not find a birth for Carmen M Dimeck although did find:

Maria Carmelia Dimeck born T/Park sept 1901 8b 159

Her marriage she is listed Carmen M Dimeck L.pool june 1923 8b 252

I am curious what others think..

Grayx

[Tina]

Hi Gray
So pleased you are back on board
Carmen was 9 yrs old in 1911 census.
I cannot find anyone in there for the details you sent.
I'd say that's her birth, they were in Tockie Park 1911.
What do you think Gray/John??

Tina

[Tina]

1901 has Anabile dghtr with George born in Malta & she's there in 1911 census.
Her/His birth is listed as Damaso Amabile Dimeck 1898 Tox Park.
So yes Gray looking at this, your birth info for Carmen could be correct.
There's Angelina Maria bn 1904 is she Melita in 1911 bn 1904??
1911 also has Anila 1 yr her birth rego as Anita.

Josaphine 2 in 1911 was born Josephine Maria P in 1908.

Tina oxo

[Gray]

Hi again,

For me, there are too many coincidences for this family not to be connected.


Going back to Samuel G Dimeck(Carmens' brother) who married Alice Martin.

One of their children was a Anthony C Dimeck.


John Ashcroft( john lees great g.father) had a sister Violet Ashcroft (aka Shirley) her 1st hubby was a Anthony C Pinder.
I would takes bets that this child was named after him..

My Ancestry has lapsed at the moment, so researching is harder..

OH my Ashcrofts, so complicated





Grayx

[johnlee]

Hi Tina and Gray

Thanks for your research - Maria Carmelia Dimeck certainly looks like a possibility.

I have got some more information. A family member confirmed the other day that they had been told the mother had given him away because her husband was away but was expected to return (which was your hunch Tina) - they didn't know why he was away but guessed the Army or Navy something like that.

I received the birth certificate for John Alan McGregor today and it is the correct date of birth - 2nd May 1926

The mothers full name is....... CARMEN Dimeck! (so that guess was correct) and the father is listed as John McGregor (seems like she did pretend it was his child). Fathers occupation is a Fireman on a Steamship.

I am not really sure what a fireman on a steamship is but does anybody know whether a steamship would be away at sea for long periods? Would the Fireman of a steamship be required to stay away from home for long periods?

The address listed on the birth certificate is 15 Mornington Street.

Happy that the name Carmen Dimeck has been confirmed as the mother

[Tina]

Hi again John
Little by little hey?
My grandad was a ships fireman from 1909 until his death in 1943.
He ploughed the Atlantic run with various companies.
Also came here to Fremantle & Port Elizabeth in Sth Africa which he told my Mum, as a little girl, they were the 2 best places in the world.

With the variations of first names, I do feel Jan's info is correct.
So pleased about Mother's name on cert.
Looks like my hunch was right?
Well, not a hunch, experience from many times this has happened when the Dad was at sea.

I'll just go back & re-read.

Tina

[Hilary]

Fascinating story

As she was married she would indeed have to record the father's name as her husband. Her name would be given as Macgregor previously Dimeck so if she recorded the father's name as something different it could be very very complicated imagine the raised eyebrows of the registrar! I know of other cases in both World Wars were the child's father is recorded as the wife's husband because they were married BUT the husband was away overseas when the child was conceived.

Ships could be away for months or even years at atime if they kept picking up cargoes for delivery to other overseas ports before eventually returning to the UK.

Did the 2 families live near each other? Have you contacted members of the Ashcroft family as they may well know the answer or even the Macgregor family. In one of the cases above it has come out via the people who were children of the same age as the child in question who'd heard the talk by their parents and also from the children of the older siblimgs of the child in questions. their parents knew their father was not at home at the time!!

Ed Officer

[Tina]

Good post E.O

Tina

[johnlee]

Fascinating story

As she was married she would indeed have to record the father's name as her husband. Her name would be given as Macgregor previously Dimeck so if she recorded the father's name as something different it could be very very complicated imagine the raised eyebrows of the registrar! I know of other cases in both World Wars were the child's father is recorded as the wife's husband because they were married BUT the husband was away overseas when the child was conceived.

Ships could be away for months or even years at atime if they kept picking up cargoes for delivery to other overseas ports before eventually returning to the UK.

Did the 2 families live near each other? Have you contacted members of the Ashcroft family as they may well know the answer or even the Macgregor family. In one of the cases above it has come out via the people who were children of the same age as the child in question who'd heard the talk by their parents and also from the children of the older siblimgs of the child in questions. their parents knew their father was not at home at the time!!

Ed Officer

Hi Ed Officer

Yes it has been an interesting story to piece together and thank you to everybody that helped.

I haven't contacted anyone on the Dimeck side because I don't think its fair to ask questions like that just to satisfy a curiosity.

I am delighted to be able to identify my grandfathers mother and can follow her family line back a little way.

I am in contact with a couple of members of the Ashcroft family who both have a keen interest in tracing family and they have been a great help.

One mystery that is still unsolved though is the whereabouts of John Ashcroft my Grandfathers father. I know his nephew who lives in Australia and both he and his father (John Ashcrofts brother Elijah) searched for a very, very long time to find out what happened to him.

John Ashcroft left the family home after a row and never returned! My Grandfather was a small boy at the time but remembers this day.

Thanks again to everyone that helped with Carmen Dimeck

[Gray]

Hi John, Tina & crew


I am thrilled for you! What a splendid piece of news re Carmen.

I would also like to find out what happened to your great g father John Ashcroft; I would also like to trace George born c1907 & William born c 1910. maybe we could get our heads together.

Take consolation that John Ashcroft was probably not the only child of Elijah Ashcroft to 'fall out' with the family.. I get the feeling some of his siblings did also.
The fact my nana Edith never spoke of her family has made me wonder was she one of them?

For some reason, I have always regarded Elijah as a 'Very strict father', now I wonder. If he was willing to take on his sons child as his own he cannot have been all that bad?

Best of luck with the rest of your 'research'

Well done!!!

Gray

[Tina]

Hi everyone and Gray

You probably have all this...

William Ashcroft bn Lpool is in 1911 census W Dby aged 1yr.
George bn Lpool 1907 in W Dby
Elijah Ashcroft 41 & Elijah aged 6yrs.

Quite a few more.
Just let me know if you don't have info.

Tina

[Gray]

Many thanks Tina,

Yes, I do have this info for 1911 but thanks for taking the time to look.

You are a 'Star'

Gray