Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi,
Could any one please help with a look up on the following,
Amelia Tull b poss 1837/38 liverpool father Joseph,
James Irving b poss 1854 liverpool father William,
Ann Marie Fox b pos 1852 or 57 liverpool father Charles,
Ann Evans b poss 1842 liverpool father John (sawyer) mother Ann.
many thanks john

Hi John
Only baptisms can be looked up if you know the name of the church.
We can try and find the relevant rego info for you to purchase the birth certificates from Govt Records Office.
Just let us know.

Tina

A check on FreeBMD has thrown up the following births.
The only entry for Amelia Tull is Sep 1839 Salford vol 20 p 716
The only entry for Ann Marie Fox born Liverpool is
Anna Maria Fox Sep 1855 Liverpool vol 8b p 105
There were too many entries for James Irving and Ann Evans in Liverpool to list here.
I also checked the Lancs opc site but couldn't find any entries for your people.
Emeltee

Hi Emeltee
I'd say you are spot on with birth in Salford 1839 for Amelia although John did say Liverpool.
She's 2 years old in 1841 census father is listed as Joseph

Tina

and again Emeltee with Annie M Fox
1861 census has her listed as born 1855 father Charles.
He's 40 & Mum is 35 so quite old for their first child??

We leave this to John to answer. His info was sketchy.

Hi John

it looks to me..

John Tull & Elizabeth Agnew

son Joseph Agnew Tull b 1801 Liverpool

marriage Jane Hull 1833 Christchurch Hunter St Lpool

child born before marriage Joseph Tull buried St Nicolas 1831 aged 12 months old address Park Lane

Death Jane Tull Liverpool 1837, not sure if Elizabeth born c1836 is Jane's ??

1841 Joseph is in Salford occupation a Cooper wife Mary ... have you found a marriage for him to Mary ?

Elizabeth b 1836 Lancs
Amelia b 1838 Lancs

Death Elizabeth Tull Salford 1841 Dec

Joseph Agnew Tull b c 1841-42 Salford

Birth Elizabeth Mary Tull 1844 Salford

Jan 1860 Joseph Agnew Tull marries Ann McGoey St Nics, after they were married Joseph goes of to Aldershot as he is a Private in the 21st Fusiliers..
He sends money home to Ann..dont know how long he is away but in Jan 1861 Ann commits bigamy and marries a John O'Toole .

When Joseph comes home and finds out he has her apprehended John O'Toole does a runner Ann was Remanded...

Joseph remarries in 1869 Ann Evans..Amelia married John Evans in 1857 were John & Ann brother and sister ????

What happened to Joseph & Mary.. i cannot see them in 1851 nor Amelia, Elizabeth Mary & Joseph ???


xx

I have found the following entry in the 1861 Census

RG9/2375/F6/p4
112 Park Lane
William Irving 45 Dock Labourer Scotland
Ann Irving 26 Wife Toxteth Park
James Irving 5 son Toxteh Park
William Irving 2.5 son Toxteth Park
Ann Cabeston 68 Mother in Law Toxteth Park

If James is really 5 then he would have been born 1856 and there is only one entry on FreeBMD for a James Irving born that year in Liverpool
Jun 1856 Liverpool vol 8b p 23

Emeltee

Hi,
Many thanks Emeltee and Tina, I think you are right with the Irvings, I have son james married to ann marie fox marriage certificate.
Amelia tull looks right as well, bit confused at being in salford, Colettes details confirm this,have marriage certificate for amelia and john evans. thanks john

Hi,
Thanks Colette for your help as usual, I have not found a marriage for Joseph and Mary, did not know of Mary. I do not know if John and Ann were brother and sister. Were joseph, Elizabeth and Amelia brother and sisters? I have a John Evans b 1837, Hellen b 1835, Sarah b 1832 and Ann b 1841 on the 1841 census if this is of any help.
I am still left looking for the above Ann Evans birth details.
I will apply for the birth cercificates for, Amelia Tull, James Irving and Ann Marie Fox.
Confused over Ann McGoey
thanks again john

Hi Tina, Emeltee and Colette, I have now received birth certificate for Amelia Tull born 14/08/1839 showing her mother as Mary Ann lately Read formerly Laurance, of 36 Bells Gates, Salford. Also I was informed by the GRO that James Irvings mother was not Ann as we thought. On the 1881 census James would have been born in 1857. Any ideas please. John

Hi John

Whats odd now is

1851 census Reform Buildings Finch Street Lpool

Head Jane Ann Tull reads Tutt age 48 Charwoman b Lpool
Son Joseph age 9 b Lpool
Dau Elizabeth age 6
Sisters Son Nephew Henry Brown age 3 months b Lpool

Now we know Joseph Agnes Tull married Jane Hull in Christchurch Hunter St 1831..
Then in 1841 Joseph is with a Mary in Salford..could it be that Joseph left Jane... went off with this Mary..both of them die.. and the kids end up with Jane.

I think i need to track Jane down in 1841.. as before i thought she had died..
Also i will check to see can i find a Brown - Hull marriage..as her sister must have married a Brown...



XX

Hi

Joseph Agnew Tull marries Jane Hull Lpool 1831

Burial Joseph Tull St Nics 1831 1 yr old ( i think hes there son)

1841 Salford
Joseph Tull b c 1806 Lancs
Mary Tull b c 1810 Lancs
Elizabeth Tull b c 1836 Lancs
Amelia Tull b c 1838 Lancs

DEATH Elizabeth Tull Salford Dec 1841

BIRTH Elizabeth Mary Tull Salford 1844

Joseph Agnew Tull born c 1841 i have checked births 1841 & 1842 can't see his reg..but hes deffo Joseph's son

Can anyone find Amelia Tull b 1838 Salford in 1851..i cannot see her..

Also can someone check the 1851 census for Jane Ann Tutt b Lpool c 1803 and tell me what you think

Do you think the two kids with her are the Elizabeth Tull born Salford 1844 and Joseph Tull born 1841.

I think Joseph Agnes Tull senior has died by 1851 not sure about Mary who he was with in 1841...

John do you have marriage certs for Joseph Junior and Amelia ?? if so who were witneses at both marriages..

xx

Quote..

birth certificate for Amelia Tull born 14/08/1839 showing her mother as Mary Ann lately Read formerly Laurance, of 36 Bells Gates, Salford.

I Think this means Mary Ann was still Read not Tull otherwise it would say Mary Ann Tull formaly Read Nee Laurance..seems odd.. that she never just put Mary Ann Tull and lied if they were not married..

So shes born Laurance and married a Read at some stage..

Now after seeing this 1851 entry and a Jane Ann is down as mother of Elizabeth & Joseph..i was thinking that Joseph Tull seniors first wife Jane might not have died.. and this is why he never married this Mary Ann.

Cannot see Joseph Senior in 1851 so i recon hes died maybe his surname is mispelt on the death reg's

Re Joseph Junior he married Ann McGoey .. he went to his barracks as he was in the Army.. she went and married John O'Toole whilst he was away.. commited bigmany..the marriage was proberbly annulled...and later he married Ann Evans..

I am wondering if this is Joseph and sister Elizabeth in 1851 then wer eis Amelia ???


xx

Hi John

someone has been doing the Tull's Tree on Ancestry..according to them

Mary Ann Lawrence married Robert Read in 1826 St Michael's Lpool they had one daughter named Margaret.. no birth year given.. but she does live and marries a William Wrigley..

No death year for Joseph but Mary Ann dies in 1867 at Finch St.. SO i was right about the Jane Ann and Joseph & Elizabeth at Finch St in 1851 they have put Mary Ann down as Jane Ann.. thats what threw me...

So Joseph must have died and Mary Ann has come back to Liverpool..

The first Elizabeth Tull born 1836 was Jane's daugher she dies in 1841 and Jane died in 1837..also according to this person Joseph married Mary in 1838.. i cant see a marriage.

Still can't track Amelia..was thinking she might be with William Wrigley and her half sister Margaret... maybe..

Hi Colette,
Many many thanks for all the hard work you are putting in. On Amelia Tulls marriage cert in 1857 her residence was Finch Street and her wittness was a Mary Ann Davies. Do you have any further details of josephs marriage cert 1833 Hunter St Liverpool so I could apply for his cert.
Many thamks john

Hi John

so Finch Street is correct... still wondering were Amelia is in 1851 Mary..Joseph & Elizabeth are there but shes not.

There wont be a marriage cert as its before civil registration 1837 was the start..
Best thing to do is start a new thread asking would anyone who is going the records office look the marriage up for you, as it will be amongst Parish records..it wont have fathers names but should have a couple of witneses names.

xx

Hi John

in 1861 i see at 13 Court Finch St

Head Ann Fall age 58 b Lpool
Grandson William Wrigley age 11 b Lpool
Grandaughter Amelia Wrigley age 6 b Lpool
Grandson Joseph Wrigley age 4..

These are all the children of William Wrigley & Margaret Read..Margaret was the only child of Robert Read and Mary Ann Lawrence

Mary Ann married Joseph Tull, what i am wondering is who is this Ann born c1803 is she William Wrigley's mother remarried.

Dont know where William & Margaret Wrigley are i cant see them at all.. maybe both have died..it is important as Margaret would have been half sister to Joseph Agnew Tull .. Amelia & Elizabeth...

xx

Thanks Colette,
I will put a request for the record office.
john.