Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Can anyone help me with this soldier. The only details that the Great Grandson knows is that when he enlisted he was residing at 49 Miles Street Toxteth Park.

Thomas Williams was born circa 1872 in Liverpool in 1902 he married a Beatrice Suart. The last child registered to them was June quarter 1915.

Using the SDGW I had 9 possibles but I was able to narrow it down to 4.

The son of this man is 85 years old and I would dearly love for his great nephew to be finally able to give him the year and regiment and where he is buried to him in time for Rembrance Sunday.

The 4 I have are as follows.

1. Williams Thomas born Liverpool enlisted at Seaforth resided in Liverpool number 13488 of the KLR 12th Battalion killed in action 2nd April 1916

2. Williams Thomas born Liverpool enlisted at Seaforth resided at Liverpool number 13582 of the 4th Battalion KLR died of wounds 24th July 1916

3. Williams Thomas born Liverpool enlisted Liverpool resided Liverpool number 202685 of the 5th Battalion KLR killed in action 9th April 1918

This is the soldier who I think is him

4. Williams Thomas born Liverpool enlisted Liscard resided at Toxtethnumber 381532 of the 5th Battalion KLR killed in action 3rd November 1917.

I have gave these details to him and advised him to get a copy of his death entry for the soldier who lived in Toxteth from Southport in the hope that his age will be on the certificate.

Does a Thomas Williams appear on any memorials from the Toxteth area

Hi Katie,

This might help a bit, but I found in the 1914 directory a John Williams Chimney Cleaner at 49 Miles Street Toxteth.

If Thomas was KIA, then his death wouldn't be on the England and Wales Death indexes.

Jan

Still at same address in 1911.

This is the household in 1911 census.

John Williams Head M age 42 Chimney Cleaner born Liverpool
Emily Louisa wife age 34
John Henry son age 11
Sarah Elizabeth dau age 8
Lily Leora dau age 3
Stanley son age 6
Edith dau age 1

All born Liverpool (John and Emily married 14 years)

Jan

This could be John and Emily's marriage

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1897
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WILLIAMS John BRUNDILTH Emily L Toxteth Park, St. Michael Liverpool 2068TP/20/169

Just showing the Medal Card as an encouragement to anybody who can understand them to give us an explanation.

The CWGC site gives his Rank as Rifleman in The King's (Liverpool Regiment), 2nd/5th Bn.

Buried in POELCAPELLE BRITISH CEMETERYGrave Reference XLII. F. 4.

I note that the has no “Date of Entry” on the card, so he clearly did not go overseas before 1916. In fact his number, 381532, is one issued after the renumbering of the battalion in early 1917, so it seems likely that he only joined up early that year.

By the end of October 1917, the Third Battle of Ypres (Passchendaele) was coming to a wet and watery end, with the mud of Flanders claiming as many lives as the enemy.

The 2/5th Battalion of the regiment, forming part of 57th Division, moved from Proven on 24th October heading for the Malakoff Farm area. The “farm” was a camp of huts and tents and after just one night here, the battalion moved to Marsouin Farm.

On the 26th, they moved into the front line area which extended from Requete Farm (north of Poelcapelle) to Broembeek. The whole area was waterlogged and it was impossible to dig trenches. Some of the old German trenches were habitable after substantial work, but mostly the men remained in consolidated shell holes, with outposts of individual shell holes in front.

These “consolidated shell holes” had been reinforced by sandbags and as much water as possible had been pumped out, but it was still usual for the men to be stood in a foot of water all day long.

The route to the front line, for both men and pack animals, was duck boards across the mud. But the enemy had their artillery zeroed in on these paths and so the option was to risk the shell fire or to take a chance on the “footpaths” between shell holes, with the possibility of falling into a deep hole and drowning in the thick Flanders mud.

The 2/8th Battalion took the first turn in the front line, but had to be relieved the next day due to the conditions, and the 2/5th took over from them on 27th October. Along with the 2/6th and 2/7th Battalions, this rotation in and out of the front line formed the main movement at this time, with the constant shelling racking up a steady toll of casualties.

It seems likely that Pte Thomas was killed around this time and place, although without a specific service record it is purely speculation. As he is buried in Poelcapelle, he could have originally have been buried in any number of different cemeteries and brought into Poelcapelle when it was created after the armistice.

Trying to pin down Beatrice's date of birth - I get the feeling the enumerator had a couple of glasses when he was writing up the 1881 census, something's not quite right.

(Assumptions)
Birth of Beatrice Suart Q4 1879 West Derby 8b 291
Birth of William Edmund Suart Q3 1877 West Derby 8b 208 (died Q3 1877 West Derby 8b 185 so not the William who was 3 in 1881)
Birth of Eva Catherine Suart Q4 1885 Toxteth Park 8b 206

1881 census
25 Pecksniff Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Edmund Suart Head M 28 Nil? Lancaster
Mary A Wife 25 Huyton Lancashire
Beatrice daur Unm 16 Liverpool
William Son 3 months Liverpool
Lucy Brake Visitor Unm 21 Dressmaker Taunton
W.H. Pendleton Visitor Unm 21 Plate-Layer Newton Ches.
RG11; Piece: 3641; Folio: 4; Page: 3

1891
26 Nestor Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Edmund 39 Painter Lancaster Lancashire
Mary Jane 36 Huyton "
Beatrice 12 Liverpool
Eva 5 "
RG12; Piece: 2931; Folio 76; Page 37

I found this website which might be of help.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/ ... killed.asp

Jan

and in 1901 there is an extra name to pad out the family tree

45 Willoughby Street, West Derby (Edge Hill area)
Edmund Suart Head Widower 48 House Painter Lancaster Lancashire
Beatrice daur S 21 Liverpool
Eva C daur S 15 Liverpool
Agnes Granddaur 2 Liverpool
Mary Ellen Garnett Sister M 49 Lancaster Lancashire
Charles P Nephew S 17 (Mechanic) Slotter Safe Makers Liverpool
Maggie C Niece S 16 Liverpool
RG13; Piece: 3494; Folio: 22; Page: 35

Edmund Suart died, age 58 in Q2 1911 Toxteth Park 8b 88a, so unfortunately would have missed the census.

Eva 25 and Agnes 12, appear to be living alone.

I've faffed about trying to match up Thomas to chimney sweep John when I should have gone straight to the 1881 census, the occupation and streetname searches there helped enormously

I know that if we get a look up for the marriage then it should confirm this family

42 Miles Street, Toxteth Park
All born Liverpool
John Robert Williams Head M 38 Chimney Sweep
Elizabeth Wife M 40
John son 14
Alice daur 9
Anne daur 7
Elizabeth daur 4
Thomas son 2
RG11; Piece: 3647; Folio: 117; Page: 27

What do you think of this one, although the age is out from what you originally thought?

Mary,

The address for the Suart family in 1881 is Pecksniff St. My grandad was born there in 1902.

Jan

Thanks Jan, I've amended the address. Hope your toothache is better

Thanks Mary.

(Tooth a bit better now thanks).

Getting back to the 1911 census, I did a street search again and realised it is listed twice! I don't have any credits to see who else is listed.

Jan

Hi Everyone

Many thanks for all the help Jan, Thomas and Beatrice must have resided in the same house so dont waste anymore credit. Big Thank you to Mary A and SJN. The great grandson has applied for the last borns birth certificate to see if there is anymore information as he was born 1915. The son of Thomas is in fact 95years old so hopefully we can find his dad. I will inform you all when I hear whats on the birth certificate.

I have Thomas Edward Williams in my family he was my grandfathers brother.Unfortunately I don,t have any info.on him after 1901 when he lived in23 St.Georges Street,his parents were William Williams and Anne nee Townson.He had three brothers with the colours John,Francis and William.John was killed in Ypres in in 1915.

On the birth certificate for the son of Thomas Williams it states that he was a Sergeant with the Liverpool National Reserve. Can any one tell me whcih Regt this was?

It may be a formal name for the army reserve which was made up of those who had signed up for X years 'with the colours', ie full time, and for Y years on the reserve, which meant they had a liability to be called back in time of war.