Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

(This thread initially started on St Helens area of the forum).

I am trying to solve a 100 year old puzzle. Fragments of a story were passed to me as a child, to the effect that someone in the Abbott branch (my gt grandmother's family) had a connection to Knowsley Hall, by marriage or employment.

Building the Abbott branch of the tree has proved very difficult to date, particularly at two critical points in the tree, as follows:

1) William Abbott (watchmaker, b 11 Nov 1807 Prescot, bapt 17 Nov) married Margaret, who must have died prior to his remarriage on 13 Aug 1849 to Mary Finch (b 1829 Bold). Who was Margaret? Margaret was either:
a) Margaret Brindle (1) mar. William Abbott 30 Oct 1830 Walton le Dale, Preston.
b) Margaret Brindle (2) married William Habbott 9 May 1828, Wigan.
c) Margaret Hewitt (widow) married William Abbott 2 Feb 1829 at All Saints Rainford. If so, who was her first husband?

2) William's father was John Abbott (watchmaker, b 1777 Widnes, d 1811 Prescot). John's wife was Isabella (b abt 1778 Sutton, Liverpool). What was her maiden name? She married a Patrick Murphy after John's death (appears in census records).

I've checked all the usual online resources. Any suggestions would be much appreciated, including those involving travel to Prescot.

This response intially posted by northmeols, Oklahoma:

Baptism: 24 May 1801 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
John Abbott - Son of John Abbott & Isabell
Born: 5 Apr 1801
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

Baptism: 3 Mar 1805 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Joseph Abbott - Son of John Abbott & Isabel
Born: 12 Jan 1805
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

Baptism: 20 Apr 1800 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Mary Abbott - Daughter of John Abbott & Isabel
Born: 31 Mar 1800
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

Baptism: 10 Apr 1803 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Margaret Abbott - Daughter of John Abbott & Isabel
Born: 27 Mar 1803
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker
you may already have these

Baptism: 17 Apr 1808 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
William Abbott - Son of John Abbott & Isabel
Born: 11 Nov 1807
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

Baptism: 17 May 1812 St Mary the Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
Thomas Abbott - Son of John Abbott, Late & Isabel
Born: 26 Sep 1809
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker
_________________
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I have found some infant mortalities among the children of Willim Abbott and Margaret, the earliest of which (Mary bap 26 Apr 1830) post-dates the marriage of William to Margaret Brindle 1. There is no mention of illegitimacy, therefore the ancestor I seek cannot be Margaret Brindle 1.

I need to eliminate Margaret Brindle 2, who married William Habbot at Wigan 9 May 1828. Does anyone have details of this marriage or of the children of William Habbot / Margaret Brindle 2 ?

Many thanks

There is a William Habbott in the 1841 census living in Wigan who I guess is the one of the Wigan Parish.

You need to have/ or someone needs to have sight of the Rainford register to see if that one says he's a watchmaker and that should clinch it.

Ed Officer

Agreed.

All the evidence so far suggests the Wigan family were tailors, living in Wigan over a long period. William appears in the 1851 census, but not Margaret.

1841 census
William Habbott
male age 35 born this county
profession is Tailor
wife Margaret age 35
children
James 15 tailor, alice 13, ann 11, Jane 9, Margaret 7, Robert 4, jeremiah 2. all living wigan lane, wigan next door is the Sarencens Head

From the Register of Rainford Chapel
15 Apr 1799 John Abbott, watchmaker, ba., & Isabel Oldham, sp., b.t.p. Wit. John Williamson, Peter Birchall

Thanks very much for these contributions.

The marriage of John Abbott to Isabel at Rainford in 1799 fits with everything else known about this couple. No viable alternatives have appeared, so I'm happy that Isabella is Isabel OLDHAM.

The 1841 census confirms that William (H)abbott of Wigan was a tailor. I've also recieved baptism details for son Robert, which repeats the Habbott / Hubbott mis-spelling, and shows continuity. I'm convinced this family (Margaret Brindle 2) can be eliminated. Proving the negative is especially important in this case.

Therefore the Margaret I'm interested in is Margaret Hewitt (widow), and I now have her marriage details as follows:

Marriage: 2 Feb 1829, All Saints, Rainford, Lancs
William Abbott - Watchmaker of this parish
Margaret Hewitt - Widow of this parish
Witness: William Appleton, Alice Large (X)
Married by Banns by William Ellam minister
Register: Marriages 1813-1831, page 162, entry 486
Source: LDS film 1657567

My next problem is to find Margaret Hewitt's maiden name, and something about the husband Hewitt (death details bef 1829, abode, occupation).

Thanks again for all the help provided.

I have seen references on the forum to John Abbott, watchmaker, of Rainford who married Isabel Oldham in 1799. I am descended from John Abbott and was born in Farnworth Widnes, where there were many Abbott watchmakers. Does anyone have any further information about John and Isobel, and know which records might be worth investigating to find their parents or other family?
Cheers
E Gandy

Drop me a line using my pm (private messages) button below.

Isabella Oldham was my 3rd gt grandmother. I have some information on Isabella, her descendants and ancestors.

Hiya Taylor....re William Abbot and Margaret Hewitt marriage on 2nd Feb 1829 at All Saints ,Rainford...both were of the Parish...witness for Margaret was Alice Large....could this be Margarets sister ?.
.on www.lan-opc.org.uk I found this Babtism of Margaret Large 29th June 1806 at St Mary The Virgin Prescot,Lancashire
born 25th May 1806...father John Large- occupation WATCHMAKER mother Elizabeth
and
John Large Watchmaker of Farnworth nr Prescot married Elizabeth Hornby Spinster of Farnworthat St Wilfrids church , Farnworth nr Prescot, Lancashire on 22nd May 1803.....(this is now within the Widnes boundary)

John Hewiit WATCHMAKER married Mary Wilcox at All Saints ,Rainford in 1812 so it would appear that the Hewitts knew the Abbotts and the Large family through Watchmaking....worth you having a good look at as it appears the church records for your families are online...lucky you....good luck....allan

Thanks garstonite

That's right, Alice Large (b 7 Jul 1797) was Margaret's sister. Other siblings were William, Ellen, Mary and Joshua Large. However, there are several baptisms of a Margaret Large in the area between 1799 and 1806. One Margaret was the daughter of Thomas John Large (watch tool maker) but I understand she moved to Kent. TJL's papers are in Manchester Archives. I think 'my' Margaret was the daughter of John Large (barber) of Prescot, her baptism being 18 Aug 1802 at St Mary Prescot. Her 1st husband was James Hewitt (b 25 Dec 1800, St Mary Prescot). He died young. He is said to have met Margaret while they were both working at Knowsley Hall. His father was Joseph Hewitt, Prescot watchmaker, born 12 Aug 1770. I have a photo of an old pocket watch engraved with the words 'Joseph Hewitt, Prescot' and I assume this is him. I need to visit the watchmaking museum to check this. ....When the weather warms up a bit!

Further to my last message to garstonite ...

The Margaret Large you identify (bap 29 Jun 1806) also has a sister named Alice (bap 15 Jun 1804). I can't find any other siblings. I would love for (my) Margaret's father to be a watchmaker, since it makes more sense in terms of social contacts etc, but it would mean that her marriage to James Hewitt, which I have as 14 Aug 1821 in Grappenhall (IGI), is problematical, in that she would have been just 15 years old. Family history does tell that they married against their respective parents' wishes (they could have married in Prescot but were said to have 'run away' to get married). I'll have to stick with the father being a barber unless some new evidence pops up.

Thanks again.

Just joined the forum and read with interest about the Abbotts. Where do my ancestors Thomas (1705) & Elizabeth (Fletcher) m 1729 at Farnworth, fit into the tree? Their daughter Esther is my g....mother.

Hello. I have Thomas and Elizabeth, and their daughter Esther, at the very top (earliest point) of my Abbott branch. Thomas (b 1705 Farnworth) was my 5th gt grandfather. The Abbott family is very large, and I only have a fraction of the whole, but here's what I have at the moment:

Thomas ABBOTT b.1705 Farnworth
married
Elizabeth ? on 31 July 1735 at Farnworth Chapel (but this date would mean that their first 3 children were illegitimate, and I think this may be the wrong marriage).

Their children:

Betty ABBOTT, b 1730 Bold Farnworth.

John ABBOTT, b 1732 Bold Farnworth, d 1732 Bold.

Nathan ABBOTT, b 1733 Bold
married Mary ALLCOCK (b abt 1735 Lancs) on 8 May 1758 at St Wilfrid's, Farnworth.

Margaret ABBOTT b 1735 Cuerdley
married Thomas BULLEN (b 1732 Prescot) on 14 Feb 1757 at St Wilfrid's, Farnworth.

John ABBOTT, b 1738 Cuerdley
married Martha HUNT (b 1744 Ditton) on 6 Mar 1761 at St Wilfrid's, Farnworth.

Alice ABBOTT b 1741 Bold
married Richard WOODWARD (b 1735 Bold) on 5 Aug 1759 at St Wilfrid's, Farnworth.

James ABBOTT (bapt. 28 Aug 1743 Farnworth),
married Mary MERRY (b abt 1745 Lancs) on 27 Dec 1762 in St Helens, Lancs. She died 1788 Widnes, buried 19 Aug 1788 at St Wilfrid's Farnworth. James ABBOTT was my 4th gt grandfather.

Esther ABBOTT b 1745 Bold, Farnworth.

Sarah ABBOTT b 1750 Bold, Farnworth.

Some of this data is second hand, so please treat it with caution!

Esther moved to Billinge where she had two illegitimate children by different men. I have copies of the maintenance orders. I haven't got any further back than Thomas & Elizabeth.

Some of the Wigan Abbotts are the descendants of William Abbott 1771 base son of Esther Abbott. He married Margaret Holcroft at Wigan All Saints in 1792

I have Thomas Abbott married to Elizabeth Fletcher on 20 Oct 1729 at St Mary the Virgin, Prescot.

Thanks mahump.

Your date for Thomas Abbott marriage to Elizabeth Fletcher on 20 Oct 1729 looks right - the year before their first-born was baptised. I picked up the later (wrong) marriage before I knew of James Abbott's (b abt 1743) siblings. Thomas's occupation is given as Maltster in the marriage details transcribed on the Online Parish Clerks website. By the way, I have his birth as 'about 1705' but this information came from a public family tree on Ancestry.com, and I havent found an original source.

I have a couple of dozen other members of the Abbott family on my tree. I could send a genealogy report by email. Contact me using the 'pm' button below if any interest.