Advice pls John Winrow finding parents?

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Have census data 1861,71 & 81 showing John as born in Ormskirk abt 1831/2 (see previous topic). http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=7669

I have a marriage certificate between John and Elizabeth Barker indicating that John's father is James Winrow - farmer.

Only found one James Winrow in 1841 census in Ormskirk
James Winrow 60 Shoe maker brn Lancashire
Jane Winrow 60 brn Lancs
John Winrow 15 ap bn Lancs
Margaret Winrow 10 bn Lancs
John Winrow 7 bn Lancs
HO 107/515/6 - 34 page 4
hope I've got the number right.

This John is a bit young

Have not been able to find christening information on the family search website.

Is it possible that John & Jane are grandparents rather than parents?
And where else can i look to find a link?

Advice appreciated

Edited to include link to previous post. MA

[Hilary]

Hi

Try the www.lan-opc.org.uk website - it has a lot for Ormskirk and there are a number of John Winrows.

If you have not got his marriage certificate I would suggest you got it so that you have his father's occupation to make sure the 1841 census entry is the correct one and you have the correct baptism.

Just read your other post and you have his father as James a farmer. A quick look at the baptisms doesn't show a John to a James but it was a quick look so it's not to say it's not there.

Ed Officer

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Thanks Ed officer - it is a useful site however not for the John Winrow (my gr gr grandfather) I need - no matter how I enter it there does not appear to be one baptised in Ormskirk at the right time. One would think that if his father was a farmer the farm would be in the area. I'm grateful for your advice.

[northmeols]

here is another james age 55 ropemaker Richard possibly brother is a shoemaker no women could be widowed...sent son out to apprentice or live with relatives

1841 England Census
Name: James Winrow
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1786
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Ormskirk
Hundred: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Household Members: Name Age
James Winrow 55
Richard Winrow 50
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 515; Book: 6; Civil Parish: Ormskirk; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 2; Folio: 43; Page: 22; Line: 21; GSU roll: 306902.

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Used the site recommended and found that James and Jane (from 1841 census had a son James born & christened in April 1818 but he would perhaps be too young to have fathered the 7 year old John mentioned in the census. The surname was spelt Windrow.

Thanks anyway.

I too am researching Lee - have a series of Williams & Peters in the family on paternal side

Regards

[Hilary]

Hi

When I had a quick look at the Ormskirk baptisms I did notice a couple of John Winrow born to unmarried mothers. If the James you found in the 1841 census was his grandfather maybe he just said James at his marriage as after all he would have thought of him as his dad if you see what I mean.

Ed officer

[S_Lawler_Lee]

I guess we'll never know as the relationships were recorded until 1851 where I have found a John Winrow as a servant in the district,

Why would he have reported his father's occupation as "farmer"

Can you point me to the information about the unmarried mothers please?
Regards & Thanks

[MaryA]

People were not as broad-minded as they are today, if he hadn't know his father he might have just entered the occupation of his own employer, or his grandfather just to save face.

The Lancashire Online Parish Clerksite given by Ed. Off. above will give you results of all baptisms if you just enter the child's name without any parents details.

You are looking at approximately 1832 so a couple of examples at around the right date would be
Baptism on 25 November 1832 Latham Chapel, Ormskirk,
John Winrow - Son of Alice Winrow
Abode - Ormskirk
Notes - Spinster

Baptism on 9 May 1835 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk,
John Winrow - Son of Elizabeth Winrow
Abode - Ormskirk
Occupation - Spinster

There are a couple in 1836 and 1837 to a Margaret Winrow.

Think around a problem, some of these ladies could be followed up to see if they married later.

An example is that Elizabeth is possibly married to James Shorliker by 1851, with John marked as stepson.

You don't know who gave the census information to the enumerator, it could have been a servant in the family, or one of the children. This person may have taken guesses with information provided. Census details should be taken as guidelines, maybe probable truths, but not actual fact. Each of the John Winrow's from the 1841 and 1851 censuses should be followed through by yourself to identify them later and so you will be sure they aren't yours, and then whoever is left could be researched more carefully to see if they are possibles. You have no evidence to confirm that the John you have found in 1851 who is a servant, is your John.

If the ages of James and Jane, as found by you above, were accurate - and bear in mind that in the 1841 census ages above 15 were rounded DOWN to the nearest 5, then they probably were the grandparents of at least John and possibly Margaret. Have you looked further at this family to see what children they had, any baptisms at the right dates? Are they still around in 1851, do they have any family still living with them?

Have you checked to see if there are any Wills?

I guess we'll never know

No point in giving up until you've explored all avenues and I hope I've given you some thoughts as to how to go further, but work systematically and attempt to eliminate each one you come across, and keep a note of what you have already checked.

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Thanks Mary I have not really given up. I am doubtful about the John listed in the 1841 census with James & Jane as he may be too young. The ages given in 1861,71 & 81 by John lead me to think that he was born in 1831,2 or 3 I will pursue the Alice connection - it did not show when I was perusing the Parish website. There were several other John's in that age group but none with James as a father.

cheers

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Found another more likely contender to be John's parents (based on marriage certificate information) - using Find my past - amazing that some records appear in one site but not on others.

RG HO107 Piece 515 Book/Folio 6/8 page 8 1841 census
in Aughton St Ormskirk
James Winrow 30 Labourer - born Lancashire
Mary Winrow 40 born Ireland
John Winrow 11 born Lancashire
+ others staying at the house no relation.

This John's age matches mine best - father is James perhaps he was a Farm Labourer as he was listed as a farmer on the marriage certificate. 1851 census has James listed as a carpenter.

On Lancashire online Parish project -
A James Winrow married Mary Kennedy in Ormskirk on 12 Oct 1835. &
A James Windrow was baptised in 1809 parents Thomas and Eleanor Windrow - can't find a marriage reference for Thomas and Eleanor.
This has been the closest match I've found.

Cheers

[MaryA]

- amazing that some records appear in one site but not on others.

This man certainly seems to swap his jobs, being a labourer and then a carpenter, I don't think he would have been a "time served" carpenter as I suspect he would have had that occupation in 1841, so it's certainly possible that he became a farmer later.

The problem with different sites is the transcriptions. James and Mary are certainly there but transcribed Winson.

Also in 1861 they are transcribed as Weinow and living in Balls Yard, Ormskir, his occupation is still noted as a General Labourer and this time they have a stepson with them - John McGinnis? an Iron moulder age 30 and born Ormskirk. RG9; Piece: 2765; Folio: 120; Page: 17 Might give you some clues as to what name to look for Mary's marriage.

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Thanks Mary - the other problem is ofcourse that i can't find John Winrow anywhere in 1851 - will try the other spellings - have tried Wirrow, Winnow, Windrow, Window - fun isn't it.
Cheers

[MaryA]

Don't try any spellings at all, leave the surname blank, just first name, date of birth and "Ormskirk" - even funner

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Ofcourse you realise that John McEmmins is probably John Winrow from 1841 - Mary can't have been having 2 sons at the same time so i'm probably back to square one. Have to go back to Alice Winrow the spinster who had a son John in 1832 - funnily enough she is the sister of James. Oh well
cheers dinner is calling

[MaryA]

Dinner? well maybe I should be thinking about breakfast

I certainly wouldn't rule out Alice, if John was brought up in a household with James he may have regarded him as a father figure and used his name on the marriage certificate.

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Have gone cross eyed looking at the various John Winrows (Winsons, Weinows, Wirrows etc) in 1841 & 51 census on 2 sites + IGI to no avail. The Online Parish Clerk Site has the most comprehensive list of Win(d)rows born in Ormskirk in the right timeframe and a number of them can be followed and eliminated from my search. It is possible that he is Alice's son christened on 25 Nov1832 but he seems to disappear after that.
The 1861, 71,81 census records that i am sure is him have him as being born in 1831,2 or 3 depending on which census.

The marriage certificate just lists his age as full which I presume means over 21 and gives his father as James so will just have to leave it there for now.

Also no trace of John Winrow/McEmmens who was supposedly born 1830/31 in Ormskirk too.

On another note was looking for William & Margaret Lee in 1861 census on ancestry - they were listed as Narmore! found one of the children which led me to the right entry.

cheers

[MaryA]

Sandy, I think it might benefit two of you if you contacted a new forum member who has posted a new topic!

http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=8266