Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I have William Thorp (sometimes Thorpe) in the 1851 censu and 1881, 1891, 1901 then he dies soon after. I cannot get him in 1861 or 1871.

He was born in Liverpool 1845, he is a plasterer all his life, marries Louisa Sophia Jane Jacobson in 1868. She was born in 1849 in Liverpool. They have a son in 1870 named Niels P. J. Thorp(e).

Can anyone else do what I seem unable to do?

Ken

I'm going to post the 1881 census so you don't think I'm mad,
21 Elm Terrace, West Derby
William Thorpe Head M 34 Plasterer Unemployed Liverpool
Louisa Wife M 31 Liverpool
Catherine Davies Mother W 55 Carnarfon
Neils PJ "Son 10 Scholar Liverpool
William daur 9 " Widnes
Annah M daur 7 " "
Mary L " 3 Liverpool
Margaret B daur 1 "
RG11; Piece: 3701; Folio: 66; Page: 17

The error over William being a daughter isn't mine!

1871
9 Fleel? Sq. Cazneau St, St Martin, LIverpool
Catherine Davies Head W 44 Dressmaker Wales Carnarvon
Lavinia S J Thorpe Daur M 21 Dressmaker Liverpool Lancashire
Ann Jane Davies daur 13 Scholar Llandudno Wales
Neils P Thorpe Son 1 m Lancashire Liverpool
RG10; Piece: 3755; Folio: 59; Page: 6

Anybody got a street directory that might give the correct name of the square?

As he was born in 1845 he would only be 16 in the 1861 census and prior to marrying Louisa, so please give the full details from the 1851 census to show the rest of the family and where they were living.

Just so that others are aware, the marriage took place in St Anne's, so the St Martins area is correct for where they were living.

Does the marriage certificate confirm William's date of birth? What were the names of the wignesses?

Presumably Catherine Davies would have married again after the birth of Louisa, was she originally Jacobson?

PS which is your Lunt family?

I think the address is Peel Square, Cazneau Street.

Marchbird

Thank you Marchbird, it was very unclear.

Hi folks
The 1901 entry has a correction to surname submitted to Anc^ 2006.
Obviously researching same family.
We will have to wait for reply Mary re 1851 as 2 "suspects"..


Tina

Tina wrote:We will have to wait for reply Mary re 1851 as 2 "suspects"..

Yep, don't really want to waste time up the wrong alley!

Thank you for such a prompt reply.

Mary I'm not surprised you were astonished by the William being a daughter. The enumerator is correct it WAS a girl. But you were not to know that her names was Willaber - god knows where that moniker came from but it is right. I actually have a photograph of said Willaber with her name written on the back and she's certainly a lady - she got married and everything.....

Marchbird is also right it was Peel Square.

---------------------------------------------------

1851 Census HO107/2176 Folio 707 p. 25
Parish: Liverpool
Ecc. Distr. St. Albans

Schedule: 63
Address: 28 Bond St.

James Thorp H M 43 Watch Maker Finisher Lancs, Liverpool
Margaret W M 40 " "
James S U 18 Watch case Master's Apprentice " "
John S U 16 Errand Boy " "
Mary A D 14 Scholar " "
Edward S 8 Scholar " "
William S 7 Scholar " "
Daniel S 2 " "
Ann Sister U 40 Charwoman " "

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have his birth certificate which specific - born June 13, 1845 - St Martins Church. Address :- 58 Bond St. Mother formerly Margaret Bond.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriage certificate confirms age and his witnesses were his younger brother Daniel and his married older sister Mary Ann Morgan who signs with a cross.
--------------------------------------------------------

As you presumed the mother of Louisa Jacobson had to remarry. Her husband Niels Peter Jacobson, a Dane, was wrecked off the Irish coast in January 1851 leaving her with three small daughters.

She marries a Welsh butcher named David Davies in Chester in 1853 and promptly has three more daughters. He dies as well by 1866 either in Llandudno which is where he came from or in Liverpool. Can't be clearerthan that not with a name like Davies!
----------------------------------------------------

I pm'd you a while ago with my Lunt ancestors and you said you weren't aware at the moment of a connection.

Hope all the above is not too boring. Still can't find him in 1861..

Ken

Seems like you probably already had the rest of the family as I gave, in 1871, but William still missing.

Do you have his parents/siblings in 1861, just checking if he's missing from the family then too.

Hi Mary
There's a Willaber Lund (could be Lunt?)
1902 W Dby.

Tina

Interesting - maybe Ken would know if that's part of the family.

Ken, did William's father say "deceased" or not on his marriage certificate, not that it's always right, but might be a guideline.

For the benefit of others, but you probably have it yourself Ken

1861
28 Peel Square, Caseneau Street, St Martins, Liverpool
All born Liverpool
Thomas Ellis Head M 22 Coach Painter
Ann Wife M 20
/
Wm Morgan Head M 25 Blacksmith
Mary Ann Wife M 23
Margerty? daur 9 Scholar
/
James Thorp FIL? Widr 53 Watch Maker
Daniel Thorp Son 4
RG9; Piece: 2650; Folio: 141; Page: 11

Already know that Mary Ann is William's sister, but I mention the Ellises being in the same household in case they too are related.

What a lot of sharp comments! Right on all counts...

Now to tick off your queries:-

1.) Tina the connection you made is correct. I made an accidental contact some three years ago with a man whose surname is Lund - it is how I got the picture I mentioned above. How you found the 1901 census so quickly I do not know. It took me months! I submitted it as a correction. What had happened was that the page was very slightly wrinkled so the actual entry was complete rubbish.

2.) Mary I do have the James Thorp 1861 Census and yes William is missing from the family.

3.) The father James is not deceased until 1871. His wife had died in 1861 which is why James has moved in with his daughter. Like you I think it means Father-in-law but it is not clear.

Now for some lunch!

Ken

Clutching at straws

The William Jones 17 year old "Nephew" of Thomas and Mary Ann Salts living at 49 Virgil Street is a plasterer's apprentice.

This is the only entry for A William with that occupation that I can see in 1861 in the St Martins vicinity, might be worth an investigation to see if the Salts have any connections with the Thorps and a completely wrong surname has been inserted for William.

So William isn't with father James, nor brother James, nor sister Mary.

Daniel may have died and a second been named after him, or alternatively the census enumerator just made another complete mess of the entry.

So to save any more fruitless searches have you checked that he's not with either of the other two brothers - John or Edward.

Yes Mary,

I have looked at the other siblings who survive and he isn't with any of them. I begin to suspect either that he escaped being recorded or the enumerator wrote down something outlandish. I don't want to spoil anyone else's valuable time so unless there are further thoughts I'll just have to revisit it yet again in a year or two.

Ken

I have often found that people have been recorded under the name of the head of the household, or even the previous household, which is why I checked many of the lodgers/boarders/nephews/grandchildren named William in the St Martin's area, around the right age, but in this case he hasn't appeared. Sorry