Mary Ann Jones/Winrow abt 1861

[S_Lawler_Lee]

My gr grandmother married John Winrow on 28 Jun 1885 - father listed as William Jones according to Ancestry website (I am awaiting certificate) her mother is Catherine, surname unknown at time of birth howver she is listed on her death certificate as Catherine Roberts (1921) "widow of Richard Roberts"- information supplied by her daughter Mary Ann Winrow. A Richard Roberts and Catherine Jones were married in 1865 in Liverpool. How do I find Mary Ann's father?

Catherine and Mary Ann are both buried at Anfield Cemetery in a 6 person plot bought by my gr grandfather in 1921. I have the original burial certificate. Despite much poring over the ancestry website data I cannot find census or anything else that matches the information I have. I am awaiting a second birth certificate for a Mary Ann Jones but it is getting expensive AND it takes a while for it to reach Australia.

Any advice appreciated

[MaryA]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

First of all I just wanted to say that I hope you aren't ordering your certificates through Ancestry - I know you can click the link at the end of the line to do so, but they are a whole lot more expensive than ordering direct via the GRO. http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

You say that you have ordered the marriage certificate - have you discovered something new on the Ancestry site that I don't know about? I'm puzzled where you get her father's name from. When the certificate arrives her father's name and occupation will be given, as will the bride and groom's addresses and a couple of witness names. Hopefully these will all help with the search in earlier censuses.

Mary Ann Jones married John Winrow at Liverpool St Silas between April - June 1885. Somebody visiting the Liverpool RO might have been good enough to take a look at this marriage for you and check the details, saving you ordering the certificate.

As you are suspecting that her mother, Catherine remarried in 1865 to Richard Roberts, I hope that the marriage certificate gives the confirmation of her father being deceased by 1885.

Don't jump the gun and order any more birth certificates for Mary Ann, we will try to help pinpoint the closest date for her birth, firstly by trying to track her back in the censuses and see which area she was born in. I'm assuming that you already know that it's Liverpool, but there are various registration districts depending on where they were living at the time.

When you have more information, such as definite confirmation of her father's name (from the marriage cert.) and possibly the censuses you could order the birth certificate using the criteria you know - eg parents names, then if you have ordered the incorrect certificate they will refund part of your money, only keeping a search fee.

Lastly, to assist those who might help (when they wake up!) do you have the details of John and Mary Ann on the 1891 and 1901 censuses.

You might find some useful tips here http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=6937

[MaryA]

Am I right in thinking this is your family in 1901?

29 St Martin Street, St Martin, Liverpool - All born Liverpool
John Winrow Head M 38 Carter (Farm)
Mary A Wife M 40
James son 14
Amelia daur 9
RG13; Piece: 3412; Folio: 63; Page: 10

and in 1891 (transcribed Wirrow)
38 Taliesin Street, St Martin, Liverpool
John Winrow Head M 28 Carter
Mary A Wife M 30
James son 4
RG12; Piece: 2899; Folio 114; Page 27

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Thanks for the welcome - as with anyone starting off I have used a bit of a scattergun approach to my research but am trying to be more disciplined now. I ordered some things but did not record them in a safe place so ended up with double ups some of which were the wrong person. If someone could narrow down the coreect Mary Ann it would be lovely.

The ancestry thumbnail that pops up for marriages lists the fathers of the bride and groom at least it does on my version so that has been helpful however it doesn't seem to be complete.

I have the detals for John Winrow and Mary Ann, John's father was also John - I think he may have been born on Ormskirk from census records 1881 - there seems to be a lot of them in Ormskirk

I have found a listing for a William Jones marrying a Catherine Jones in Liverpool in 1859 from the Lancashire BDM Website (which led me to you!)

Also on Ancestry there is a marriage between Richard Roberts and Catherine Jones on 8 Feb 1863 - not 65 as I stated earlier which would indicate that William Jones had died by then.

I cannot find Catherine and Mary Ann in the 1861 census.

You are correct the records you have found are my family - Amelia was my grandmother she married William Peter Lee on 21 July 1912 at St Mary's Kirkdale. I last saw her in October 1963 120 Northumberland Terrace Everton prior to us leaving for Sydney. We lived in Anfield and could have walked easily to the cemetery to see the graves had the family talked about it - amazing isn't it.

I will wait to hear about Mary Ann.

If I want further advice is it best to post a seperate question?

Regards
Sandy Freeman (nee Lee)
Lee, Lawler, Winrow, Egerton and so on

[Tina]

Hi Sandy
You have come to the best forum around, fair dinkum.
Sandy lives in Valentine which is near Newcastle....no not that one!

Yes, good idea to put a separate post for assorted rellies.

I've received certs from GRO within 10 days, no postage charges either.
Heck of a lot cheaper than Canberra.

Chat soon
avagoodweekend

Tina

[Tina]

Good find Mary re Wirrow surname in census.

1881 John (head) bn Ormskirk 50 labr
Elizabeth 51 bn Bold, James 21 John 18 both carters bn Lpool
Thos 14, Jane 11, Ellen 9 all born St Helens.
Sandy I've the above John & Elzbth in 1861 if you need it.
1871 they were in Parr which explains the St Helens births.
John is 10 bn Lpool.

Side tracking here away from your request.

Tina

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Thanks Tina I have that information - it is lovely to feel supported this is the first time I have participated in a forum like this so I'm unsure of the protocols.
I'm not sure about the St Helens John and Elizabeth as Elizabeth was born in Cheshire not Bold, Lancashire. They are probably related - as I said there are lots of John Winrows born in Ormskirk - don't know how to find the relevant one for the 1831 John his parents could be any of 5 combinations John and Hannah or Thomas and Elizabeth are likely as their John was born in 1831.

I am going to wait until I sort out Mary Ann before tackling the next generation.

Valentine is south of Newcastle on the shores of beautiful Lake Macquarie in the city of Lake Macquarie. We have been here about 23 years now - love it. Much warmer than Canberra.
cheers
Sandy Freeman

[northmeols]

here's the bmd site for cheshire.. bookmark it for future refs

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Have 4 possible references for Mary Ann's birth in 1860 (3) and 1861 (1) plus 1 that was incorrect. All 1860 are Jul qtr at West Derby 8b - 304, 243, 297 : 1861 is Liverpool, Apr qtr 8b 108

Mary A suggests contacting the GRO direct - can this be done on line or do you have to call them from UK?

have pored through census records to try and find a trace of Mary Ann in 1861 or 1871. Cannot find the right Wiiliam Jones, Catherine Jones or Richard Roberts who I think Catherine Jones married in 1863 8th Feb.

I have a marriage cert for a William Jones marrying a Catherine Jones but sadly it's the wrong one.

Regards
Sandy F

[MaryA]

My head has been going round in circles with your Jones/Jones and Jones/Roberts scenarios and to be honest I don't want you to rush in and spend more money on this, I would like you to take it one step at a time.

I don't know how your version of Ancestry shows you her father's name but on the IGI there is an extracted record for the marriage which took place between John Winrow and Mary Ann Jones on 28 June 1885, at St Silas, Liverpool.

We can assume that this is the correct marriage since you have it confirmed by their childrens birth certs .... I think.

Now you mention a possible marriage of William Jones to Catherine Jones in 1858 (from LancashireBMD) and although this fits for date, I'm not 100% convinced that this would be the right family as there is a possibility that it took place in a Catholic church, whereas the daughter's was in a C of E church.

These are only thoughts and I'd welcome other opinions, but might I suggest that you request a look up from somebody going to the Record Office for the St Silas marriage and get more details as to address and occupations of Mary Ann's father before you spend any more money.

Also can you tell us which certificate for William and Catherine that you have that is incorrect so that we can avoid looking at this couple.

[S_Lawler_Lee]

Hi Mary you are not alone in the head spinning department. I will try to be clear about what I am sure about

1/ Incorrect marriage certificate for William (35) & Catherine Jones 28 was at the Welsh Calvanistic Methodist Chapel on 1st June 1859 William was a widower. I think they were wealthier than my Jones!

My reasons for believing that Mary Ann's father was a Wiliam Jones is that it is on the Ancestry pop up box. + I know her maiden name was Jones from my father and her marriage record - have not yet got the marriage certificate. (have ordered so many as i am juggling lots of strands at once -such a novice!)

Catherine Jones (abt1840) who married Richard Roberts in 1863 also shows her father's name as William Jones in the same ancestry look up program that I used for Mary Ann.

I have the death certificate for Catherine Roberts (11/Oct 1921 Mill Road hosp) information supplied by Mary Ann Winrow - daughter. registered in Everton South. It states that she is the widow of Richard Roberts. Also have a wrong Catherine Roberts death cert from 1920 (Wife of thomas roberts)

The death certificate solved one mystery for me and provided another.

Not sure if that is any clearer. I am saving my pennies to send for the John & Mary Ann marraige certificate soon - I am on a quota - been driving my husband mad!

cheers
sandy F

Happy to give the wrong certificates to your group for other people - have a birth c for mary ann fr 1861 - parents Henry Edward Jones and Elizabeth Carke 27 feb - born in Barracks St Domingo Road Everton