COURTNEY

Post by **1sandra** » 08 Jun 2009 09:55

Hi, I am having difficulty finding my great grandfather, John Courtney. On his Marriage Certificate (23.12.1863 in Sydney) he states his age as 22, therefore born about 1841 (England). Father: William Courtney, Mother: Mary Handy. On Birth Certificate for my grandmother (27.6.1868) he states he is 28 years, therefore born about 1840, in Liverpool England. On the first Certificate he is listed as "Mariner" and on last Certificate he states his occupation as "Master Mariner". I know he drowned at Jervis Bay, Australia on 12.02.1869. I have not been able to match these facts with any listed for 1840/41 in Liverpool, England. Your help would be appreciated. Sandra.

Post by **alan donougher** » 08 Jun 2009 10:07

Could he be one of the following 2 ?
John Courtney Mar qtr 1839 West Derby Vol 20 page 848
John Courtney Dec 1841 Liverpool Vol 20 page 422 both births
Happy if these help you

Alan

Post by **alan donougher** » 08 Jun 2009 10:20

I looked up the marriage in the NSW BMDs and noticed he married a Sarah Bagnall. Are we talking Nowra area here? Possibly lots of help if we are, as the Bagnall name is prominent in the district.
Alan

Post by **MaryA** » 08 Jun 2009 12:32

I assume your marriage certificates, unlike ours, don't give the father's occupation.

Without knowing this I have a possible family in the 1841 census
Scotland Road, Islington, Liverpool
William Courtney 40 Shoemaker Ireland
Mary 39 Ireland
Esther 17 Ireland
Ann 15 Ireland
William 6 Lancashire
Charles 3 Lancashire
HO107; Piece 559; Book: 15; Civil Parish: Liverpool; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 22; Folio: 43; Page: 33

This could fit with the birth in the last quarter of 1841, but having difficulty finding them in the 1851 census. There are of course possible deaths that could be the parents.

Do you have any idea when he emigrated and whether any of his family also?

Post by **Tina** » 09 Jun 2009 10:31

Evening folks
familysearch have a submitted entry by a member, which we know are often incorrect.
They have John born in Botany 1840.
died 12/2/1869
parents as listed
marriage as listed 1863 Sydney.
death Sarah Bagnall 1918
Sorry not much help.

Welcome aboard Sandra.

Tina

Post by **1sandra** » 10 Jun 2009 10:37

Thank you for replies. I'll carefully check the responses you have given.
The Marriage Certificate for John Courtney & Sarah Bagnall did not list father's occupation. Sarah Bagnall and father Thomas Liversage Bagnall lived in Botany, NSW. The two certificates (Marriage and Birth Certificate for my grandmother, Mary Ann) both state he was born in Liverpool, Lancashire. There is no Death Certificate. Only 2 children from the marriage, Elizabeth and Mary Ann. Even family trees from Elizabeth's side seem to stop at John Courtney. My father was the last of Mary Ann's 5 children, his siblings had no children. Myself and 2 brothers and our children are the only descendants left, so from this side no-one else is researching him.
I don't know when he came to Australia, being a mariner could have come on any ship as crew. I have inherited a telescope and sextant which possibly came from him, pity they can't talk!!!

Post by **MaryA** » 10 Jun 2009 10:56

We have a number of links on our Websites board that you could investigate regarding seamen and ships etc. I collected the links together for a friend recently so here they are you might like to browse through them.

The following links will take you to an entry posted by a forum member as it might be useful to you to see if they have made any comments about the sites.

The first one is posted by our member whose interest was more in the 1960-1980's I believe, still I suspect the sites she came across might be worth looking at to see if they have any useful information for earlier dates.
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=6174

Immigrants ships might not be so useful, but you never know where names might be mentioned, so perhaps worth a look.
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=6275

http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=6422

Jan has listed the reference number on here to check in the Record Office catalogue.
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=6503

This is the new section of Findmypast for Crew Lists, which has only recently been uploaded
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=7488

This was a link posted by myself, but I probably found the sites in the Your Family Tree magazine. Mention of the CLIP Project also.
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=7125

A Merchant Navy site
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=5767

Another lot of links I picked up in a magazine
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=5713

The Battle of Trafalgar will be far too early for your search but might be of interest to you.
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=4705

Mainly Passenger Lists, but you never know
http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/p ... php?t=2412

Post by **Tina** » 10 Jun 2009 11:11

Hi Sandra
I do hope your mementos are from John.

Have you had any contact with Sarah's side of the family?
Her mother was nee Hartshorn.

Txs

Tina

Post by **1sandra** » 11 Jun 2009 09:45

Thank you for your assistance. I'll check through all the information on the weekend. Will advise.
Sandra.

Post by **northmeols** » 11 Jun 2009 13:16

whilst checking lancs opc for something else I noticed this entry.

Baptism: 6 Aug 1837 St Patrick, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Courtney - Daughter of Patrick Courtney & Mary (formerly Handy)
Born: 2 Aug 1837
God Parents: John Handy; Bridget Handy;
Baptised by: G.Gibson
Register: Baptisms 1837, Page 33, Entry 7
Source: LDS Film 396375

Post by **northmeols** » 11 Jun 2009 13:33

just thought I would look at this patrick and Mary Handy they had a son john in 1841 if they were catholic could dad have gone by the name bill or something like his confirmation name....his given first name could have been patrick

1851 England Census

Name: John Courtney : Male : 11 : abt 1840
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Patrick
Mother's Name: Mary
Where born: Lpool, Lancashire, England
County/Island: Lancashire
Household Members: Name Age
Patrick Courtney 40
Mary Courtney 39
James Courtney 19
Anne Courtney 15
Elizabeth Courtney 13
John Courtney 11
David Courtney 9
Margaret Courtney 7
Thomas Courtney 7
Jane Courtney 3
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2177; Folio: 22; Page: 36; GSU roll: 87172-87174.

Post by **Tina** » 12 Jun 2009 07:13

Very good find Susan.
Perhaps he was Patrick William Courtney?

Patrick is widowed 1861, with Thomas, Elizabeth, Margaret & Jane.
No John.
James poss married 30 in Mt Vernon.
Can't find David.

No luck with marriage Patk/Wm to Mary Handy in Ire or Eng in
IGI.

Cheers
Tina

Post by **1sandra** » 12 Jun 2009 10:00

Thank you Susan. This one looks extremely promising. The mother's name is spot on and John's DOB is what we have. I have tried for a lot of years to find this link and thanks to the Heritage Section of the Taree Library, NSW, for suggesting I contact you. I'll advise my results. Thank you everyone for your input.

Post by **northmeols** » 12 Jun 2009 13:31

here are few other things I've found for you

Marriage: 24 Aug 1845 St Patrick, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Handy -
Mary Anne Turney -
Witness: Nicholas Mannon; Mary Gardiner
Married by: W.P.
Register: Marriages 1827 - 1848, Page 139, Entry 4
Source: LDS Film 396378

Marriage: 19 Sep 1841 St Patrick, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
David Handy -
Mary Burns -
Witness: James Tobin; Elizabeth Burns
Register: Marriages 1827 - 1848, Page 116, Entry 1
Source: LDS Film 396378

Marriage: 8 Aug 1837 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William Wildgoose - (X), 24 Labourer Bachelor of Greenland St
Bridget Handy - 22 Spinster of Greenland St
Groom's Father: Elijah Wildgoose, Farmer
Bride's Father: John Handy, Labourer
Witness: William Shaw; John Wragg
Married by Banns by: Thos Halton Curate
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1838, Page 34, Entry 68
Source: LDS Film 93920

COULD BE THE SIBLINGS OF MARY

1841 England Census
Name: Bridget Wildgoose
Age: 20 : abt 1821
Where born: Ireland
Civil parish: Liverpool
Household Members: Name Age
William Wildgoose 25
Bridget Wildgoose 20
John Wildgoose 2
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 565; Book: 9; Civil Parish: Liverpool; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 17; Folio: 6; Page: 5; Line: 19; GSU roll: 438717.

THE BRIDGET FROM ABOVE MARRIAGES

Post by **northmeols** » 12 Jun 2009 13:48

CHECKED THE CENSUSES FOR JOHN AND MARY COURTNEY 41/51/61 THEY BOTH WERE BORN IRELAND SO AM ASSUMING THAT SIBLING PROBABLY BORN IRELAND TOO

FROM TOXTETH PARK CEM RECS

Courtney, Emindine 5 July 1859 1 year Infant 343 6844 A 663 352 CEM 9/1/2
Courtney, Mary 17 January 1859 38 years Wife 269 5366 R 309

GRO INDEX
Deaths Mar 1859
Courtney Mary Liverpool 8b 127

RIGHT AGE FOR PATRICK
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1889
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
COURTNEY Alice 2 Great Bolton Bolton GB/8/266
COURTNEY Patrick 69 Stretford Trafford STR/26/2

Post by **1sandra** » 13 Jun 2009 09:38

Thank you Susan, you've gone way beyond the call of duty. When I posted my query I didn't expect to get so much information from yourself and others. I'll plot it all out and try and match them up. Could you possibly tell me where to go to follow this information further? We do have a local office of LDS, is this a start? I'm an amateur at this but all fired up now.
Sandra.

Post by **northmeols** » 14 Jun 2009 02:29

this is the only john courtney I can find. I would send for birth cert through GRO [7 pound] stipulate that you only want it if the mother is Mary Handy. they will refund 4 pound back if its not the right one

Births Mar 1839
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Courtney John West Derby 20 848