Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello there

This is my "maiden" request and I would be most appreciative of any help with the following -

I have details from the IGI records for the following -

James MUIR christened 25/10/1818 St Peter Liverpool

William MUIR christened 13/09/1820 St Peter Liverpool

Father - John

Mother - Jane

Unfortunately, I have been unable to trace details of their elder brother John MUIR, born 1809 Liverpool, any other siblings, or indeed the Marriage of John and Jane.

Apologies if I've been over ambitious, but any information would be great!

Many thanks.

Dottie.

Hi Dottie
John Muir and Jane Fairhurst?
had

John 1809?
Thomas 1812
Ann 1815
James 1818
William 1820

This might be a possibility for them in 1841

John Muir 1776 Scotland Tea Dealer
Jane 1776 Lancs
John 1811 Bookeeper Lancs
Ann 1816 Lancs

Dorothy

Many thanks for your prompt reply Dorothy.

The 1841 census MUIRS are indeed mine, but without sight of Parish

Registers, I'm unable to link them up to your traces.

I know that they also had a son William and possibly James. Any

suggestions as to how to proceed please?

Regards Dottie.

I should have said that all the childrens names I gave you were Baptised at St Peters.

I think it was Thomas Baptism that said his mother was Jane Fairhurst.

(All found on the IGI)

Dorothy

Welcome to the best forum around Dottie.
Dottie meets Dot!!

1841 looks like Ann is John's wife rather than sister as there is little Eliz as spelt 2 yrs.
Marr John Muir 1839 to Ann Lace at Lpl St Phillips.

Let's see if we can find the other boys in 1841.

Good luck

Tina

I'm just going to redo the 1841 census for clarity and to add address and reference.
Pleasant Street, Mount Pleasant, LIverpool
All except the first John, born in County
John Muir 65 Tea Dealer Scotland
Jane 65
John 30 Bookkeeper
Ann 25
Eliz 2
HO107; Piece 561; Book: 16; Civil Parish: Liverpool; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 17; Folio: 19; Page: 30

I think Tina's suggestion of Ann being John's wife is correct, born out by the 1851 census.
Scotland Road, Howard Street, Liverpool
All born Liverpool
John Muir Head M 42 Coal Clerk
Ann Wife M 38 Cigar Shop
Eliza daur 11 Scholar
William son 9 "
Rich'd son 7 "
Ann I daur 5 "
Jas son 2
Maria daur 3 months
HO107; Piece: 2178; Folio: 157; Page: 22

Despite Jane's claim to be born in County, there is the possibility that they were married in Scotland and possibly earlier than might originally be thought. The ages of John and Jane at 65 and then the eldest known son, John 1809? leaves quite a large gap when there might be other children.

Have you considered whether the 80 year old John Muir, Independent, born Glasgow Scotland, lodging in 8 Grenville Street might be yours?
HO107; Piece: 2181; Folio: 500; Page: 24

Hello Everyone

What a welcome and thank you for being so helpful.

I have traced the marriage for-

John MUIR & Ann (nee BROWN) 14/02/1837 at C/E Parish Church of

Farnworth, Near Prescott, Lancs, which tallies with details of their son

Richard Brown MUIR.

Will these Parish Records be held at the LRO and if so, would it be possible to request a "look up" from anyone who will be visiting in the near future please? My hope is to gleen information regarding John's siblings, especially William.

I was aware of John MUIR snr on the 1851 census, but had not pursued this and your comment Mary, regarding John and Jane marrying in Scotland, has certainly given me something to think about.
HELP!!!

Thank you, in anticipation.

Dottie.


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I don't think Farnworth Registers will be held in the Liverpool RO, although possibly Huyton or St Helens. There is a website for the church http://www2.halton.gov.uk/content/touri ... rthparish/ together with phone number, when in doubt I usually give the churches a call direct, they usually are able to advise.

If you think a marriage is possible in Scotland then the site you need to help is http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ which is a pay site.

Is William your direct line? or if not what do you know of him, do you know whether he survived, married, had children, his occupation later?

I find a William Muir 20 years old, living Rose Place, born Scotland in the 1841 census who is a cabinet maker. HO107; Piece 563; Book: 7; Civil Parish: Liverpool; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 14; Folio: 23; Page: 39

and then in 1851 there is, I suspect, a different William as he claims to be 34, but again born Scotland, Shetland, who is a Dock Gateman. His wife is Racheal? 25, daughter Racheal Ann 2, and son William 11 months, his mother in law is Ann Peek, a widow age 55 born Litherland.
HO107; Piece: 2177; Folio: 682; Page: 52

It's possible that your William might have been born in Scotland yet christened in Liverpool but it does seem unlikely, so more clues would help.

Hello Mary

Sorry for being so vague and for the epic tome that is to follow.

John MUIR born 1809 is my gg grandfather.

I have an unexplained letter that has been passed down through the

family, sent from Kurnool, Afghanistan, dated August 10th 1842.

Addressed to "My Dear Parents" and signed "Your Affectionate Son W.

Muir," there is mention of brother John and Anna, little Elizabeth, James

and Agnes, Mr and Mrs Hughes and ex girlfriend? Sarah.

The 1841 census shows his parents John and Jane living with brother John

and family, with Mr and Mrs Hughes as neighbours.

I was confident in assuming that William was his Christian name, as

together with John and James, forms part of a common thread in the

history of the MUIRS.

Details in the letter are not sufficient to assertain whether he served in

the British or Bengal Armies, however, just this evening, I traced a

William MUIR on the 1841 census. Born abt 1821, he is at Brompton

Barracks, Gillingham, Kent, which could possibly be a holding centre,

prior to being dispatched abroad. I sourced this on the Ancestry Site.

I also suspect that William may have perished in the Battle of Kabul,

hence the family "heirloom!" and the reason for my involvement in Family

History.

Please forgive my ignorance, but regarding the birth records of John and

William, would a "look up" request in Parish Records for churches near

Scotland Road (the 1841census address), be an unsurmountable task?

Many thanks for the two links, which I intend to follow up.

Kindest regards

Dottie.

Hi Dottie
What a wonderful family letter.
I just had to google about the war in Afghanistan. 1838-1842
It certainly looks like it is your man in the barracks 1841.
Just to say thanks for sharing.

Good luck

Tina
new avatar photo taken Thurs 21st, storm blew for 2 days, we need the rain but not that much all at once!!

That's a great momento to have in your family, keep it safe!

There may be no point in searching the parishes near Scotland Road since you already know the older ones were christened in St Peters. There also might not be much more information that was given on the IGI, certainly the mother's maiden name won't be there if the LDS site hasn't transcribed it. You might be lucky in getting an address or an occupation for the father.

I wonder if William's military history might be worth following to see if there are more clues. Perhaps post another message asking for help from our military experts, otherwise it might mean a trip to Kew as hopefully there might be surviving records.

Hi Dottie
There are a number of engineers listed in the 1841 census.
Kent online Parish Clerk states the Bromptom Barracks was home to the Royal Engineers.
This may give a clue as to which regiment in Afghanistan William was attached to.
Cheers
Tina

I had a private message from a member who I wondered might have some knowledge, but he admitted that it is outside his area of knowledge but would ask to see if any of his contacts might have any information.

He suggested that these sites might help give some background.
http://www.britishbattles.com/first-afg ... ndamak.htm

http://www.victorianwars.com/viewforum.php?f=15
and also that iIt may be useful to have the letter transcribed, as it may give some clues as to unit/location.

Many thanks for your keen interest and most helpful information.

I have submitted a post on the Victorian Wars Site and wait anxiously for

any responses.

I am more than happy for you to view the letter, just let me know how to

do it!!!

I'll keep you posted regarding any developements,

Kindest regards

Dottie Dorothy.

If you have it scanned then instructions for showing it are here
http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=6279