Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I wonder if someone could check the 1841 and 1851 census data for a John Geddes born abt 1836. Unlucky for me, he was born a year before the civil registrations and I haven't a clue if he has any siblings, his parents' names or if they were even in Liverpool for very long.


In taking an overall view of the GEDDES / GADDAS / GEDDIS / GIDDIS surname in the area, it would seem to me that they came from Carlisle, Cumberland through Liverpool and toward Manchester. John's wife, Annie KERR was born in Carlisle (both surnames are pretty prevalent there).

Any help would be most appreciated.

Thanks, Ronda
(in Ontario, Canada)

Hi Ronda, a warm welcome from across the globe.

Just a few questions! Did John leave for Canada after 1851 and did he marry Ann over there?
I'm asking as there are quite a number of John Geddes born that year. If he left for Canada, then we can discount the ones left in 1861, if that makes sense.
Do you have a marr cert?

Thank you

Tina

Good luck....

Hi Janet, Thanks for the warm welcome (it's always greatly appreciated when joining a new list)!

To answer your question, no... John didn't come to Canada at all, he went from Liverpool to Manchester. Here's what I have on him:

John GEDDES b abt 1836 Liverpool, Lancs
m Annie KERR 1858 (Reg’d at Preston, Lancaster, Lancashire Reg’n LANCS/3/178)
(Annie of Carlisle, Cumberland b abt 1832/3)

1871 Census: Stockport Rd., Rusholme, Manchester; John was 35, a warehouseman, born in Liverpool, Annie was 37 b in “Scotland/Carlisle” (Carlisle, Cumberland, England)

1881 Census: 19 Church Road, Rusholme, Manchester Source: PRO Ref RG11 3912 / 85 / 33; John, age 45, was an unemployed salesman , Ann (aka Nancy), age 47, was a dressmaker born in “Scotland”.

Their eldest child Isabel Merton GEDDES was b 1860 in Lancaster, Lancashire (b reg’d Preston, Lancaster; mother’s maiden name recorded, LAN/27/60)

2nd child Fanny GEDDES was b ca 1862 in Ulverston, Cumbria (from 1881 census)

Their remaining children Elizabeth Ann "Bessie", Kate, Mary Jane "Polly", Jessie Kerr, Florence Clara "Noddy" and Alexander "Alec" Kerr GEDDES were all born in Manchester between 1863 and 1875 (have birth registration #s and census confirmation on each). Mary Jane "Polly" GEDDES was my 2x Gt. Grandmother (she and her husband Fred WILSON of Whitchurch, Shropshire came to Canada in 1906).

So... I don't know if the info helps narrow things much but this is what I'm working with! LOL Thanks for your interest (I truly hope someone can help me knock down this brick wall of mine)!

Ronda
(in Ontario, Canada)

Hi and welcome from me also.

In 1861 they were living Burlington Street, Ulverston
John Geddes Head M 25 Upholsterer Lancashire Liverpool
Nancy Wife M 27 Milliner Cumberland Carlisle
Isabel M daur 10 months Lancashire Lancaster
RG9; Piece: 3167; Folio: 119; Page: 27

As Tina says, the name John Geddes on it's own is a bit too common to pinpoint the person we want, so it would be best to obtain the marriage certificate which will give details of his father and his occupation, hopefully they will be found together in earlier censuses.

I am aware that it's not easy to order the certificate through the LancashireBMD site from abroad (a money order might be needed) but it's often easier to order direct from the GRO as this can be done online using a debit card. You can do so here http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

The information you will need is
John Geddes to Annie Kerr Q4 (Oct-Nov-Dec) 1858 Lancaster district Vol 83 Page 813

Hi Mary,

Thank you so much for checking the 1861 census for me and for the advice & info needed for ordering the marriage certificate. I'd been hoping to avoid ordering the certificate for the time being as I'm very strapped for funds at the moment but if this is what it is going to take then I will have to try to 'float the capital' so to speak! ... perhaps when $ from my income tax return comes in a month or so.

Cheers,
Ronda

The cheap alternative to ordering a certificate is to ask if somebody might be visiting the Lancashire Record Office (not the Liverpool one) and if they could do a look up for you, but before asking you would need to be fairly sure of the church.

I notice the entry in the LancsBMD said "Lancaster Register Office or Registrar Attended" and at that date it's probably unlikely that it was an actual register office marriage as we know it nowadays, but it could possibly be a marriage in a Catholic Church or non Conformist.

Could it be possible to narrow down the non Church of England churches that were in existence in the Lancaster area at that date http://www.genuki.org.uk:8080/big/eng/

Hi Mary,

I followed through the Genuki pages to the Lancashire Record Office which holds the non-conformist church records for Lancaster. I don't think they'd be Roman Catholic or Quaker (based on pursuant family tradition) but I could see them being Methodist or Baptist. More than likely the latter since, although Fred and Mary Jane WILSON (nee GEDDES) didn't practise any specific faith, their daughter Clara was a very staunch baptist (even when in Manchester before the family emigrated). So...

I should ask if anyone going to the Lancashire Record Office would look this up on my behalf then?

Before throwing out a general request like that, I would prefer you to try to pin it down to the name of a Methodist or Baptist Church which was open at that time, the more work you do the less time it will take somebody from their own research which will make them more willing to do a favour.

Thanks Mary,

I'll do that (I would like to do as much as possible from this end)!

I must dash out now for a bit and make use of the bright sunny day that has moved in but I will get back at it later on this evening.

You've been very helpful.

Best regards,
Ronda
(Ontario, Canada)

researching: BROADHURST in Manchester, Lancs.; GEDDES in Liverpool; WILSON in Manchester, Lancs. and Whitchurch, Shrops., JONES in Whitchurch, Shrops.; KERR in Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle, Cumberland (and trolling for a marriage connection of MERTON/MORTON to either GEDDES or KERR)

In doubling back to get the specifics I found that there are no Baptist marriage registers for Preston or Lancaster in the Lancashire Record Office holdings though all is not lost as I found these (which are also possibilities - particularly the Primitive Methodist)::

PRESTON, Church St - Unitarian
M 1842-1937 Orig reg UPR 1-3

PRESTON, Saul St – Primitive Methodist
M 1846-1886, 1907-1943 Orig reg MPR 36/1/1, MMR 32/7-11

LANCASTER, St Nicholas St – Presbyterian/Unitarian
M 1845-1860, 1877-1909 Orig reg ULA 2/1-2

So, is the correct procedure on this list to post these on a new thread that asks anyone going to the Lancashire Records office if they would mind checking these records for the 1858 John GEDDES to Ann KERR marriage details?

(I SO appreciate your walking me through this... have never asked anyone to do a lookup at the records office on my behalf before)!

Thanks,
Ronda

http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB ... php?t=7405
This is an example of an ultimately successful request and you can see also how friendships are started on the forum

Many of our members who live in England are in the Liverpool area and don't visit Preston very often so I couldn't guarantee that you will be successful but it certainly doesn't hurt to ask.

You could also email the Record Office, especially if the churches you have pinpointed are unsuccessful, and ask if they could make more suggestions for the date in question. I suspect they would be willing to undertake 15 minutes of time, after that they may make a charge, this appears to be standard.

Hi Ronda
Do you have details for Ann Kerr?
I've found this entry in 1851, looking at her parents names & the names of her kiddies, I think it could be your Ann

1851 Lancaster
Alexander 63 bn Scotland stone mason's inspector
Isabella 55 bn Northumberland
5 children including Ann 17 bn Carlisle.
HO107/2272/431/6

Sorry no luck with John.

Tina

Hi Tina, Thanks so much! You could very well be right! I saw a marriage of an Alexander to an Isabella somewhere and put an asterisk beside it because of the wife's name being the same as one of Ann's sisters and not an overly common name BUT I haven't seen the 1851 census entry so I didn't know there was also a daughter Ann. Are there other childrens' names in common too (by chance)? Thanks again, Ronda

In case Tina's still asleep ...
Upper Thurnham Street, Lancaster
Alexander Kerr Head M 63 Stone Masons Inspector Scotland
Isabella Wife M 55 Northumberland Belford
James son U 24 Joiner Journeyman Cumberland Carlisle
Alexander son U 21 Stone Mason " " "
Isabella daur U 19 Not Employed " "
Ann daur U 17 " " "
Mary Jane daur U 13 Scholar " "
HO107; Piece: 2272; Folio: 431; Page: 6

1841 Bridget Street, Lancaster, Lancashire
All except father Alexander NOT born in county.
Alexandre Kerr 45 Architect's Cl. Scotland
Isabella 40
John 15
William 15
James 13
Alexander 11
Isabella 9
Ann 7
Mary J 4
HO107; Piece 553; Book: 6; Civil Parish: Lancaster; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 8; Folio: 27; Page: 49

Thank you Mary, yes I was snoozing.
Hey, we could have been a tag team at the Stadium..

Warmies
Tina

I'll let you pick our name Mary, Peter will ban my choice....

Thank you both Tina and Mary... you are angels for sure! As you have both posted while I it was MY turn to sleep (ha), now I have these delicious tidbits to go make comparisons with other miscellaneous data on the KERR line and see if any of it comes together!

It is an interesting observation that Isabella aged 15 yrs in the 10 yr gap between censuses whilst Alexander aged 18 (and Isabella stopped being born in Northumberland and switched over to Lancashire) LOL ... I ran into this once before along my WICKS of Gloucestershire family research (in 3 census reports my ancestor was 3 different ages and born in 3 different counties). Fortunately, his wife and children were consistent enough to maintain order among the reports.

Many Thanks,

Ronda
(in Ontario, Canada)

posted on other posting info on johns family

I'll say this folks, with all the time zones, we got John G covered 24/7
We all understand Ronda about your Wicks. One of our Pearce's was the same swapping between Staffs & Shrops. In one census he said he was born in Hollywood...now that takes the cake I said to the pc screen..
It was Holly Wood near Stone Staffs.
I'm off to read N.M's new post.
Cheers
Tina

That's too funny Tina! Maybe the census taker thought he was a star before his time! ... I wonder if Hollywood had even acquired its notoriety at that time... an interesting muse.

Cheers!

Ronda
(Ontario, Canada)


Northern England surnames: BROADHURST, GEDDES, WILSON, KERR, CHARLTON/CHORLTON, DAVIES, JONES, NEWTON