Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello to everyone on the forum.

Thank you for being patient with me, as I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack! I understand that birth certificates were issued in the portrait style from 1970 - 1984, but does anyone know if the colour was changed?

Have birth certificates always been issued in red? Does the colour black indicate illegitimacy?

I will say thank you in advance. THANK YOU!!!


Membership Number 7791

Hi

As far as I am aware the same certificate is used for all births irrespective of whether the child is legitinate or illegitimate. All the certifictaes I have seen are exactly the same and yes they are red. They have tiny red typings on them with the entries written on top.

I have not seen a modern birth certificate but death certificates changed to Portrait around that time. Death certificates are headed in black and have a black look about them

Marriage certificates are have the tiny typings in green with the entries on top.

Ed officer

Thank you, Education Officer. I have two birth certificates, one from 1912 and one from 1914, the parties concerned are illegitimate, and the birth certificates are printed in black.

The Government "shield" or "crest" is printed in black and the tiny headings are in black, and also the box which contains the information, ie, name of child etc. I also have two birth certificates from both 1970 and 1972, the strange thing is, is that the parents names are listed on both certificates, however one is in black and the other is in red.

I do not understand this, and was wondering if the Government had changed the colour as well as the orientation. I thought that maybe there had been an experiment with the colour for a year or so, which perhaps didn't work, so the original colour had been restored. Although I don't know for definite.

The original landscape orientation was restored in 1985 and is still used to this day.

Sorry to be a pain, can anybody understand this at all?

Membership Number 7791

Hi are you sure they are not copies the 1912 & 1914 ones ??

Regards

Hi Collette,

All the certificates were ordered and paid for at the Cotton Exchange in Liverpool, and sent through the post. I hope they're not copies, they cost me £7 each!!!

Thanks



Membership Number 7791

They will be certified copies. In this case it probably means that they are photocopies of the originals entries from the register, ie on marriage certificates you might have the images of the bride and groom's own handwriting.

Thanks MaryA,

I thought that all certificates were certified copies of entries in the register. Why does this affect the colour?

Sorry to be so thick



Member: 7791

Hi Hippy Dippy,
As MaryA suggested, those black and white certs are probably photocopies of the original certs. Modern copy certs are produced by the GRO using an automatic process where the information is 'inserted' into a template. I have several birth certs of illegitimate children in my collection (a reckless and fertile lot), going back to the 1840s and they are all in red.

Not quite sure what the process would have been in the late 19th and early 20th century if someone had requested a copy of a birth cert. Possibly produced by hand, but if you have any further doubts I think a query to the GRO would be in order. I have found them to be very helpful in the past.
Cheers,
Dickiesam

Dickiesam,

Thank you for that, I may just order the certiciates on-line first, and if they still come back the wrong colour, then I will ring up the GRO to see what is going on.



Member:7791

Hi

Rather than spending money getting more copies why not contact Liverpool Register Office (as they issued them) and ask them to explain what's going on.

Ed officer

I'm always in favour of asking the question of the people who did the deed!

Contact details here http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Registrars_ ... /index.asp

Thanks to all,

Looks like a visit to the Register Office is on the cards. Very confusing all this!



Member:7791

Hippy Dippy wrote: Looks like a visit to the Register Office is on the cards. Very confusing all this!

You'd be better off phoning, I believe these days you need to arrange appointments rather than just nipping in to ask questions.

Just wondering if it would be possibly for you to scan and post one of the early ones (provided the people aren't living)on the forum. Perhaps then we could sort out the problem.

Somewhere I have a birth certificate I got from Liverpool register office. I'll see if I can find it and see what colour it is.

Ed Officer

I've found it - it was issued by Liverpool Register Office in 2002 and the main typing is in red with the rest handwritten in black ink.

Hi

I have my Parents Birth Certificates I ordered from the Cotton Exchange and they are both Black, they are the same as the ones from the GRO except for the colour. they are for births in 1911 and 1915.

Regards

Education Officer,

I would rather not scan and post the earlier birth certificates, although the people concerned are dead, they have living relatives (myself included) and it would prove rather embarrasing for those people who are of another generation to myself, as they were brought up to not wash their dirty laundry in public. I do not wish to embarrass my family.

Barbara Bonney,

Thank God somebody else has had the same experience! I may be a bit thick here, but I thought that all certificates were produced in the same way. Whether the GRO or the local register office issues the certificate it would be coloured according to its status, (birth = Red, marriage = Green and death = Black).

I actually have 3 birth certificates where the people concerned are illegitimate, and all 3 certificates are in Black. The 2 previously mentioned from 1912 and 1914, and a Scottish birth from 1940 where it clearly states "Father unknown". The 2 from earlier on just have a line drawn through where the fathers name should be.

With this in mind it concerned me to receive the 1970 certificate in Black and the 1972 certificate in Red. The people are siblings. The 1970 certificate was obtained in Oct 2008 and the 1972 certificate was obtained in March 2009, I do not understand how both certificates were produced differently when only a few months apart from being ordered and paid for.

Both (1970's) certificates have the parents names listed on them. I assumed that if you paid the full £7, that you would get the product that you paid for.

Is this not the case with the local register office?

Sorry this was too long to read



Member: 7791

I must admit I was suprised when I received the Black certificates, they are all black even the writing. I only ordered them as both of my parents had the small certificates with no information on them; I already knew all the information I just wanted full certifcates to put into my Family History information. Also both of the certificates had their fathers name on them.


Regards

Sounds to me as though the Cotton Exchange folk have been using a black & white printer to produce the cert. Copy birth certs ordered from the Irish GRO in Dublin were also produced in b&w.

To assure HippyDippy, I am certain there's nothing 'sinister' about b&w birth certs. You should ask the GRO in Southport by sending an email to their contact section. As I said before they are very helpful people.
Cheers,
Dickiesam

Interesting topic
I have my mother-in-law's original birth cert. and that is black and handwritten in black ink as well. That was issued in Wales in 1904. My husband was born 1935 in Salford, Manchester, and his cert is also black and written in black ink as well.
There was definitely no question of illegitimacy, so I guess it was just the norm until someone decided it would make more sense to make the certs in 3 colours - red for birth, green for marriage and black for death. It definitely makes it easier to sort them out when you get copies from GRO etc.,
Lil

Dear All,
I'm sorry I've only just read this topic and hope I can solve your queries as a Deputy Registrar who supplies certificates on a regular basis.

Firstly the certificates that anyone requests from a Local Register Office or Southport GRO are all 'the genuine product'. They are certified copies of the original entry from the register. If the entry was in the older registers they will be on the certificate in landscape format. The modern format is portrait as the registers were changed in 1974 (I think that was the year).

The entry could be copied either by photo-copying the original entry in the register and then copied onto special certificate paper in the appropriate colour, or handwritten on to the appropriate certificate paper.

If the entry is photocopied, if will probably have the tiny headings in black as reproduced from the register whilst the handwritten copies are written on the certificate paper which has the headings already on the certificate paper in the appropriate colour.

Some Register Offices provide the certificates by photocopying the entry and others will handwrite them depending on their own decision and office circumstances.

Illegimatacy is shown by either no father's details being included or if both parents details are included then both parents have to sign the entry.
A father's details cannot be included in the entry when they are not married unless he attended the registration and signed the entry with the mother present.

Sorry its a long explanation but hope it solves all your queries.