Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello forum, I'm new here!

I've recently confirmed that my great-grandfather, Cornelius William Townsend (the only great-grandparent I actually knew) was born in Liverpool and had 5 brothers and sisters, and that his mother, Sarah Ann O'Neill, was born in Belfast, came to Liverpool in 1854 or 1855 with her family, and was one of 12, most of whom were born in Liverpool.

This has come as a considerable surprise to the rest of the family, as he had not bothered to mention 5 siblings, 11 uncles and aunts (and presumably dozens of cousins) or his Irish ancestry! In fact, he had carefully "lost" his past, possibly because his father, James Henry Townsend, had a bit of a chequered past, and he himself became a successful man in Salford, for whom his father might be a bit of an embarassment.

I, however, am delighted and would very much like to find out more about his extensive family, and hope there is someone on this forum who might also be from either of these families.

Townsends
James Henry, b. 1845, Langdon Hills, Essex
Emily, b 1870, Salford
Sarah Anne, b. 1877, Liverpool
John, b. 1879, Basildon
William, b. 1881, Great Burstead, Essex (in the workhouse)
Cornelius, b. 1882, Liverpool
Jane, b. 1884, Liverpool

O'Neills
Patrick, b. 1822, (Illegible, but Ireland)
Rose O., b. 1827, Belfast
James, b. 1847, Belfast
Sarah Ann b. 1849, Belfast
Rose, b. 1851, Belfast
Patrick, b. 1853, Belfast
Michael, born 1855, Liverpool
Margaret, b. 1857, Liverpool
Jane, b. 1859, Liverpool
John, b. 1861 Liverpool
Mary and William, b. 1863, Liverpool
Matilda, b. 1866, Liverpool
Bridget, b. 1869, Salford

Louise

Hi Louise,
Welcome! As a newbie myself I'll leave the advisory part to those "in the know" on the forum.......of which there are many. They have been an invaluable help in my case! You are amongst many, many friends with Irish connections - unfortunately I'm still fathoming out my lot as they came via Scotland! Most seem to have a Mick or Patrick in there too!
Shall keep my eye on how the posts bump up and offer anything I reckon may help you on your voyage of discovery (sometimes amazing stuff comes to light) Good Luck. Pauline.

Hi Louise,

Are you looking for them on census records? They sound a colourful family Essex, Salford,Liverpool, Essex back to Liverpool

Sue

Hi Pauline and Sue,
Thanks for the welcome!

They are indeed colourful, it's such a nice change after the worthy but BORING branches of the family I've been researching for the last 15 years!

I do have them on the census records, and I also have James Henry and Sarah's marriage certificate, which shows that they met when the O'Neills had a brief sojourn with Salford (just the one baby there!) - James Henry was a soldier in the 100th Foot, stationed at Salford Barracks. I don't think he stayed in the army long, and after that they seem to flit between Essex and Liverpool, although in 1881, Sarah and the children are in the workhouse in Essex whilst James is in jail in Ipswich

He ends up being a Dock labourer in 1891, (Sarah died young), and then totally disappears - I can't find a death for him, nor any more census appearances; when my great-grandfather (Cornelius) marries in 1902, he claims he is dead, but that might have been wishful thinking!
I'd love to know what happened to the siblings and cousins, though.

Hi ATB & Crew
Welcome from down under (Australia) to the forum

This maybe John Henrys death details.....as it does fit in with what Cornelius says earlier in your post



Free BMD Index...
Deaths Mar 1901
Townsend John Henry 60 Blackburn 8e 252

See what else I can find for you

Cheers
Momo

Hi Again
Can you give us the trades or proffessions of the family members so I can search my directories as these contain heads of households with their address at the time.

Cheers
Momo

Welcome Attilla the Bun
are you Sticky or Currant??
Had a shock, thought you were from New South Wales..
Just joshing

I'm sure we can all help. What a sad story about workhouse etc.
Thanks for being honest.

Mo he's James bn 1845 in the nick in 1881.
bn Lanidon?Hills

I hope someone reading this may look in old newspapers to find out why James was in prison.

Poor Sarah in the workhouse aged 31 bn Ire listed as wife of genl labr.
Emily 11 bn Lpool (birth in Salford) then a gap to Sarah 4 bn Lpl, John 2 bn Basildon,
baby Wm as stated born in the workhouse.

Last child born in 1891(Kirkdale) census is Jane 7yrs.
Emily is 21, Sarah Ann 14.
Gap doesn't add up??
Death Sarah, poor woman 36yrs 1889 W Dby.
Marr Jas to Sarah in Salford 1870.
1901 Emily poss in dom serv Bootle.


Tina

How about this one>?

Name: James Henry Townsend
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Year of Registration: 1903
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 56
District: Leeds (1837-1929)
County: Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 9b
Page: 251


Sue

Hi Sue 1901 census has James H.T living in Leeds born in Leeds right age for death you mentioned.
I'd like to find the kiddies in 1901

Tina

Thx Tina,

Was going to check on that soon. Kids are on 1/2 term, so getting a few interruptions lol, having to take eldest into town now for a photo shoot!

Sue

Morning everyone, you've been busy!! Thanks for your interest. I'm at work

Tina, James Henry was born in Langdon Hills, which is a village near Basildon in Essex - the 1881 census is just a mis-transcription, the sort that often make our searches a bit challenging... He was in prison in Ipswich, and I have to go to wedding in Suffolk this summer, so that will be my chance to hit both the Suffolk and Essex records Offices! It can't have been a very serious offence, as he was out and conceiving my great-grandfather very soon!

I know there are James Henrys in the death registers of about the right age, Momo. but it's a pretty common name - if he was working in the docks and all his family were living nearby, what would he be doing in West Yorkshire, I wonder? I might have a scout around before I shell out £7 for a certificate, look for James Henrys in Yorkshire on earlier censuses, for instance. Thanks very much for looking, what a friendly place this is!
I have a feeling there's some mystery here, though - C.J. has so determinedly cut himself off from his past, when he became mayor of Salford, and later when he died, the newspaper reports all said he was born in Tooting. London, but when the 1911 census came out, there it was in his own handwriting, born in Liverpool - that was when I finally knew I had the right man, hence my appearance here! One thing I had in mind was looking out for descendents of his siblings, in case someone knows the story.

He also changed his name from Cornelius William to Cornelius John, allegedly because he didn't like his initials being the same as the abbreviation for hundredweight. Hm.
He did incredibly well for himself, and I'm really proud of him - starting in his teens with a stepladder and wheelbarrow, he built up a big steel-erecting firm in Salford and put up the steel for loads of huge buildings like Lewises in Manchester, bridges in Canada and allegedly was part of erecting Sydney Harbour bridge (although that I have to confirm!). A long way from his family in the workhouse. But he never forgot those worse off than himself, he started a big charity giving country holidays to deprived city kids, and eventually got an OBE for his charitable work.

re the gap in his siblings, wouldn't that be to do with James's army service? Or maybe he was in prison again On the 1871 census, Sarah is living with her parents and the baby (it's hard to spot, I was looking for her family, and she;s there at the top of the list of children, as "Sarah A. T". and her baby at the bottom of the list as Cecily - must be hers, otherwise the babies are too close together! I'm going to Kew in June, so I'll be having a go at looking up James's career in the 100th Foot then

Btw, I posted about Patrick and Rose on the Antrim board over on Rootschat, and someone has already found me a possible marriage for them, 1846 in Belfast - she's a McClure! Have sent off for a birth certificate to check this.

Hi Peepers
Here's a link where info has already been given, to save research time.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... c=238589.0


Tina

Hi,

Before you take a trip to the Essex Record office, if you are planning to do so, I would advise calling Essex County Council, as some records are kept in Chelmsford and some in Colchester.

Though it looks like his prison record can be obtained from the National Archives.

Sue

Thanks, both! Everyone is so kind

That's really helpful information about Essex Record Office, and I'll be going to the National Archives for the first time in June, so I'll find out then what he was up to, the little rascal (claiming he was unmarried, for one!).
Waiting for a birth certificate now to confirm Rose's maiden name

Please keep us posted, thanks me dear

Tina

Hello again!

I now have a marraige certificate for Patrick and Rose (Rose is a McClure!) from Belfast, and have got as far as I can backwards at the moment, given the problems with Irish records (although I can feel a research trip to Belfast coming on at some point!)

It would be good to go forwards as well, and see if I could to track down any Townsend and O'Neill descendents, and find out if they know some answers to some of my questions (photos would be nice too!) There doesn't seem to be anyone researching them that uses this board or anywhere else I've tried on the internet, but I did wonder whether it might be worth putting a letter in one or more local newspapers - there are often letters from people looking for family connections in the local paper where I live now.

Do you think it would be a good idea to try this in the Liverpool area , and if so, which papers should I write to? Has anyone had any experience of doing this?

No experience but this is the link for the Liverpool Echo online
www.icliverpool.co.uk

Good luck

Hiya
Have you found any more contacts through GRU please?
Thanks
Tina

No. not one since I had the new information. I made contact with a few Townsend descendents, but not of the Liverpool family, from the earlier generations in Essex.