John HEWITT and Mary ?

[Kirsty]

Hi All,

I've got a bit of a puzzle. I've found the following two marriages:

01/07/1810
John HEWITT m. Mary MARSH @ Rainford PC

17/07/1812
John HEWITT m. Mary WILCOCK @ Rainford PC

One couple is mine but the other isn't and I'm not sure how to work out which one is which.

I have an Ann HEWITT who is the daughter of one of the above couples. Ann HEWITT is definitely mine but I don't know which John and Mary are her parents.

Ann HEWITT's baptism and marriage:
12/02/1815
Ann daughter of John & Mary Hewit, Prescot, watchmaker

11/11/1838
Edward Black m. Ann Hewitt @ St. Wilfred, Farnworth.
Brides father: John Hewitt, watchmaker.
Witnessed by William Garnett & Mary Hewitt.

I've also found the following baptisms on Lancs OPC. The children must belong to the above two John & Mary's but I don't know which child belongs to which couple. Help.

02/12/1810 - St. Mary, Prescot
Elizabeth Hewit - Daughter of John Hewit & Mary
Born: 24 Oct 1810
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

25/12/1812 - St. Mary, Prescot
Elizabeth Hewit - Daughter of John Hewit & Mary
Born: 1 Dec 1812
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

12/09/1813 - St. Mary, Prescot
Alice Hewit - Daughter of John Hewit & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

12/02/1815 - St. Mary, Prescot
Ann Hewit - Daughter of John Hewit & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

26/03/1815 - St. Mary, Prescot
Joshua Hewit - Son of John Hewit & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

29/01/1817 - St. Mary, Prescot
Mary Hewit - Daughter of John Hewit & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

10/05/1818 - St. Mary, Prescot
Sarah Hewit - Daughter of John Hewit & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

03/10/1819 - St. Mary, Prescot
Alice Hewit - Daughter of John Hewit & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

25/12/1820 - St. Mary, Prescot
William Hewit - Son of John Hewit & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

24/02/1822 - St. Mary, Prescot
Thomas Hewit - Son of John Hewit & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watchmaker

26/05/1824 - St. Mary, Prescot
Joshua Hewitt - Son of John Hewitt & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watch Maker

19/10/1827 - St. Mary, Prescot
Jane Hewitt - Daughter of John Hewitt & Mary
Abode: Prescot
Occupation: Watch Maker

I've also found several baptisms of children belonging to John & Mary Hewitt's where the father is a labourer or a 'pin maker'. I don't know if the labourer and 'pin maker' children come from different John & Mary's to the two above or if their father's simply changed jobs.

Can anyone offer any suggestions or help?

Many thanks for reading. Kirsty

[chrisrose]

Hi Kirsty,
Just wondered what the address was on Ann's marriage cert?
In 1841 there is a John and Mary Hewitt living at what looks like Atherton Street, Prescott with Mary, Alice, Thomas, Joshua and Jane.
Does that help at all?
Chris

[MaryA]

Very difficult. I was about to look for John and Mary in the 1851 census, hoping to find a mother-in-law but found Joshua - yes the easy name to search for, married to Agnes with four children, and his occupation is Watch Pinion Maker. So it would seem that the occupation of "Pin Maker" would be connected to watch-making anyway.

The entry for John in Atherton Street in 1851 is also a Watch and Pinion Chronometer Maker, so these occupations are definitely interchangeable.

[MaryA]

On the assumption that the family lived close to each other, in 1851 Atherton Street holds father John with married daughter Mary Pillinge with husband and children, and closed by are Thomas and wife Alice and daughters, as he's aged 29, can it be assumed that this is Ann's brother? What a pity Mary seems to have died by this time, no confirmation of her place of birth.

If so then who is George Hewitt aged 57, Chronometer Movement Maker, living a few doors away, with wife Margaret and children? Is it possible to find George's parents and find any clues that way?

Another thought is where is Mary buried? Could the location give any clues? Could she be with or near her parents?

Do we have any details in censuses about the other John and Mary to see if there are any "in laws" living with them to identify.

[Tilly]

Hi Kirsty

I've got LPRS book Raindford Church in front of me and the entries read

1 July 1810 John X Hewitt watchmaker ba and Mary X Marsh sp btp Witnesses Edward Marsh, Mary X Hewitt Wm Browne

17 July 1812 John Hewitt watchmaker ba and Mary X Wilcock sp btp Witnesses Jane X Hewitt James Yates George Hewitt

Don't know if this is any help to sort out the puzzle. The first Mary I guess must belong to the first John and Mary.

Tilly

[Kirsty]

Hi and Many Thanks to Chris, Mary and Tilly,

I think you've all given me the breakthrough I was hoping for. I really wanted a second pair of eyes to look at the problem from a fresh point of view and I got three excellent pairs of eyes - cheers me dears .

From looking at the 41 census Chris mentioned (Source Citation: Class HO107; Piece 516; Folio 14; Page: 21) it looks like the following children were siblings:
Mary
Alice
Thomas
Joshua
Jane

• From the baptisms off Lancs OPC we can assume that the 1810 Elizabeth belonged to the 1810 John & Mary and the 1812 Elizabeth belonged to the 1812 John & Mary.

• The next child in the list of baptisms is an Alice (1813). This Alice is too old to be the Alice on the 1841 census.

• The next child is my Ann (1815).

• The next child is a Joshua (1815) who is too old to be the Joshua on the 1841 census and too close in age to be a sibling of my Ann.

• The next child is a Mary (1817) who could be the witness to my Ann's marriage and be around the right age to be a fit for the 41 census.

• Then we have a Sarah (1818) who we can forget about for the time being.

• Then we have an Alice (1819) who is around the right age to be a fit for the 41 census.

• Then we have a William (1820) who we can forget about for the time being.

• Then we have a Thomas (1822), Joshua (1824) and Jane (1827) who all look to be around the right age to be a fit for the 41 census.

As there is only one Mary on the list of OPC baptisms and a Mary Hewitt appears as a witness at Ann’s marriage I’ve got a very strong feeling this Mary is my Ann’s sister. As a Mary appears with Alice, Thomas, Joshua and Jane I’d say the family on the 41 census is my Ann’s family.

What do you think? Am I leaping too far?

More from me shortly, Kirsty

[MaryA]

I hope you have enough pointers to be happy with your decision, but I'm not the right person to confirm or otherwise - at the point of the 1841 and just before I know to my cost that this is the worst time to make assumptions. I would suggest that you go ahead with your research on that basis but remain slightly open minded and hopefully one day something will come along that will confirm or otherwise what you believe.

Bear in mind that your friends have jumped on the wrong bandwagon in the past Mary's Big Mistake

Mary

[chrisrose]

Hi Kirsty
Sounds very plausible to me but my head is too full of s t at the moment to think otherwise.
Chris
oops stands for n o , not something else!

[Kirsty]

I hope you have enough pointers to be happy with your decision, but I'm not the right person to confirm or otherwise - at the point of the 1841 and just before I know to my cost that this is the worst time to make assumptions. I would suggest that you go ahead with your research on that basis but remain slightly open minded and hopefully one day something will come along that will confirm or otherwise what you believe.

Bear in mind that your friends have jumped on the wrong bandwagon in the past Mary's Big Mistake

Mary

Hi Mary,

You're quite right. I really shouldn't try to make things fit or make assumptions. I've just read "Mary's Big Mistake", thanks for giving me the link. It makes for a really interesting read and is an excellent lesson for anyone about to make a leap with their tree.

I'm going to have to do a lot more digging with the Hewitt's, which is no bad thing. Finding the two John and Mary marriages has given me something interesting and tricky to get my teeth into. I think I'm going to really enjoy this one.

Thank you again for your help and advice, I really appreciate it .

Tilly, I meant to say in my last post that I was really pleased with the marriage details you'd posted - many thanks. I've got some marriages for Rainford but what I've got here isn't early enough to cover the 1810 and 1812 marriages. Having the full marriage details, I'm sure, is going to prove really useful. Tilly, do you have Rainford marriages for October 1841?

All,
I'm now trying to cast a wide net and see what the Hewitt's were up to on the censuses. I'm hoping following the trail of the Prescot Hewitt's will give me some clues. I've been looking at the 1851 census Mary mentioned with the Pillinge's:

Source Citation: Class HO107; Piece 2194; Folio 356; Page 29.
HEAD - John HEWITT - 62 (c. 1789) - Prescot
SON-IN-LAW - James PILLINGE - 30 (c. 1821)
DAUGHTER - Mary PILLINGE - 32 (c. 1819)
GRANDDAUGHTER - Ellen PILLINGE - 8 (c. 1843)
GRANDDAUGHTER - Mary J PILLINGE - 7 (c. 1844)
GRANDSON - John PILLINGE - 5 (c. 1846)
GANDSON - James PILLINGE - 2 (c. 1849)

I looked at the original image and it does look like PILLINGE to me but I'm wondering if the original enumerator made a mistake. Could the name really be PILLING or BILLINGE?

To confuse matters further I found the following marriage and the following registration of births which appear to be matches for the above children:
23/10/1841
James BILLINGE to Mary HEWITT @ Rainford PC.

Birth - Sept Q 1842 - Prescot - Ellen Hewitt PILLING
Birth - Dec Q 1843 - Prescot - Mary Jane PILLING
There were two possible matches for a John Pilling.
Birth - Dec Q 1848 - Prescot - James PILLING

I've not been able to find the PILLINGE's on any later censuses. Does anyone thing they may have the family on the 61 or later censuses?

Many thanks, Kirsty

[Tilly]

Hi Kirsty

The LPRS book for Rainford is from 1702 - 1812. I know there is a marriage index for later but this is in Lancashire Record Office.

I've been going back a bit on your problem to see if that would help. There appear to be 2 John HEWITTS christened at st Mary's Prescot around the time frame you want.

John HEWITT bn 8 Sept 1793 ch 29 Sept 1793 illegitimate son of Ann HEWITT Eccleston

John HEWITT bn 27 Dec 1794 ch 25 Jan 1795 son of Joseph and Martha HEWITT Prescot wtachmaker

There may be others in the area so I looked for other children of Joseph and Martha HEWITT and found

George HEWITT bn 19 Jun 1793 ch 14 July 1793 son of Jospeh and Martha HEWITT watchmaker Preston

Could this George be the witness at one John's marriage?

Looking back further there appears to be a family in Eccleston headed by Joshua and Ann HEWItt they have a son Jospeh bn 1770, a Joshua (there is a Joshua and Ann having children around the same time of your John and an Ann.

If I were you I would extract all the HEWITTS from St Mary's Prescot and St Helens registers (as you ahve these) and feed them into a family tree programme and see where that leads you. Isuspect the families will be related to each other but hopefully by tracking father's name etc you might be able to sort the Johns out.

By best from the 1841 was what appeared to be a family of father James Ambrose, wife Ann Ambrose, and son Richard. No it Was James a widower Ann his sister and their very much younger brother Richard. The father had been married 3 times!!!

Tilly

[Kirsty]

Hi and a big thanks to Tilly,

You've read my mind you know . I'm in the process of extracting all the Hewitt's from my Prescot and St. Helens PR's. I think I'm going to have to go to a library/record office also to check the other local churches. I think I'll need to check Eccleston, Farnworth and Rainford churches also just to make sure I've not missed anything important/relevant.

I've also checked A2A to see if anything helpful might turn up and found the following which looks promising:

Eccleston. Order of filiation and maintenance of John, bastard child of Richard Glide of Scarisbrick, blacksmith, and Ann Hewitt, singlewoman QSP/2341/50 1793 5 November

Eccleston. Order of filiation and maintenance of John, bastard child of Joseph Cooper of Charnock Richard, weaver, and Ann Hewitt, singlewoman QSP/2341/52 1794 18 June

That's all from me for now, Kirsty

[MaryA]

Now I wonder if they are the St Helen's Eccleston? The Charnock Richard makes me think that at least the second one is the Eccleston further north, nearer to Preston.

[Kirsty]

Oooh, Good point Mary.

And Scarisbrick isn't exactly near either. Hmmm...

The only other thing I found which may be connected is:

Wigan: Epiphany 1794 - ref. QSP/2333
FILE - Coppull to Eccleston. Order of removal of Ann Hewitt, singlewoman - ref. QSP/2333/52 - date: 1794 2 January

I think this is going to be something of a three pipe problem.

Thinking cap back on. Ho, ho, ho, Kirsty

[Tilly]

Hi

Kirsty

I think the first John son of Ann Hewitt ties in with the christening of the John at St Mary Prescot in 1893.

I'll take out the Rainford Hewitts if there's not too many over the next few days - that'll be up tp 1812.

Tilly

[MaryA]

Wigan: Epiphany 1794 - ref. QSP/2333
FILE - Coppull to Eccleston. Order of removal of Ann Hewitt, singlewoman - ref. QSP/2333/52 - date: 1794 2 January

You are going to collect quite a database of Hewitts, Tilly's suggestion of creating trees for all the branches you find is a good one and if you check out where Coppull is it comes under Chorley and so not far away from the Eccleston near there, so I would think this Ann is the same one as referenced under Charnock Richard.

Even if only out of curiosity I would be inclined to get the Removal Order, just to see if she was being removed alone or with any children.

And thinking about dates, it's unlikely but possible at a pinch that both the Orders of Filiation were for the same Ann, could that be why they are both listed in Eccleston?

[Kirsty]

Hi Tilly and Mary,

I'm going good with my record extraction so far and have completed volume 163 and 111 of the LPRS books (St. Helens part 2 and Prescot 1766 - 1795).

I'm already seeing patterns and have found some really detailed entries like the one below:

St. Mary, Prescot
Buried: 26/03/1789
Lydia daughter of Joshua Hewit, E, {Lydia died 26/03 age 16 months 19 days, daughter of second wife}.

I'm going to pay a visit to Preston record office in January and take a look at any maintenance and removal orders I come across between now and then (I also be checking out further PR’s).

I’m enjoying making my little Hewitt trees – I’m sure this line of attack is going to pay off.

I was wondering about the four John Hewitt baptisms I’ve turned up at
Prescot, St. Mary:
B. 18/03/1783
Bapt. 06/04/1783
John s. Peter & Elizabeth Hewit, Prescot, labourer

B. 08/09/1793
Bapt. 29/09/1793
John illegitimate s. Ann Hewit, E

B. 27/12/1794
Bapt. 25/01/1795
John s. Joseph & Martha Hewit, Prescot, watchmaker

B. 29/11/1796
Bapt. 18/12/1796
John s. Joseph & Martha Hewit, Prescot, watchmaker

• The 1796 John is too young to be getting married in either 1810 or 1812.
• The 1794/5 John could just about be old enough to be the 1812 marriage (about age 17).
• The 1793 John could be the 1812 marriage (age about 19) and could be just about old enough to the 1810 marriage (age about 17).
• The 1783 John could, in theory, be either the 1810 or the 1812 marriage making him either 29 or 27 when he married.
• Or we could be missing baptisms from other churches.

The John Hewitt on the 1851 and 1861 doesn’t help with any of the above baptisms as his birth of year appears as 1789.
Hmmm ...

TTFN, Kirsty

[Tilly]

Hi

From Rainford LPRS

Betty Hewitt a witness on 20 Feb 1785 at the marriage of Samuel Johnson watchmaker and Ann Rushton btp other witness Daniel X Sixsmith

Baptism 16 Dec 1810 bn15 Nov John son of James & Elizabeth Hewitt of Rainford

4 June 1797 John X Millet labourer widower & Jane X Hewitt widow btp wit John Birchall Peter Birchall

27 Dec 1778 John Hewet signs Hewitt otp & Jane Twist sp (Prescot) wit Jas Spencer Wm X Twist

18 April 1768 Alexander Roper Wrightington mason & Lydia X Hewett ( Hewat) Rainford wit Jas Spencer William Bispham

12 June 1803 Richard Hatton parish Ormskirk ironmonger & Mary Hewitt (hewet) sp otp wit William Burnett Peter Birchall

17 Nov 1783 Mary wife of Richard Hewit cordwainer Rainford

3 Dec 1769 William Gee whiston yeoman & Sarah X Hewitt sp both Eccleston wit Peter hewitt William Bispham

27 May 1770Jospeh Oldham bricksetter amd Margaret Goore sp both Prescot wit Jno Byron Peter hewitt

10 Oct 1756 Henry X Brown & Sarah Briarley Windle wit James Spencer and Richard Hewitt

Tilly

[MaryA]

Also an entry in Childwall, the Registers of the Chapel of Hale
08 Jun 1841 John Wycherley of full age, bachelor, watch movement maker of Prescott {father - John Wycherley, labourer} & Jane Anne Hosker of full age, spinster of Halebank {father - John Hosker, labourer} banns witnessed by Joseph Hewitt, Mary Hosker

Doesn't mean that Joseph Hewitt had anything to do with Prescott just because the groom did, but I liked the coincidence of the occupation.

[Kirsty]

Hi Tilly & Mary,

Tilly, thanks for the Rainford PR's. I'm adding them to my list. I've come across children from what looks like the John Hewet and Jane Twist marriage, so an extra thanks for that one .

Mary, thanks for Childwall marriage. It is interesting seeing the occupation of watch movement maker. Sticking to a Joseph Hewit's and watch making theme, I came across the following wills:

Supra - Hewitt, Joshua of Prescot, watchmaker - 19 June 1802
Supra - Hewitt, Joseph of Prescot, watchmaker - November 1835

I'm going to check these wills out when I go to Preston. I think it's going to be an interesting trip.

Many thanks, Kirsty

[Tilly]

Hi

Joseph HEWITT married Martha THORNTON on 15 April 1793 at Huyton no further details as it was on www.familysearch.org

I found a number of Farnworth ones but I know you have the LPRS for that

When you go to Lancashire Record Office it would be worth looking at the probate indexes for John Hewitt after 1858 even better if you have some death dates because the 2 Johns may just have left a will.

Tilly