Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi All,
I'm new to this forum, having only discovered it a few weeks ago. I've read so many helpful replies to others - you are certainly a knowledgeable lot and I hope some of you may be able to help me break down some of my walls in the future.
My first query has been driving me mad for ages and I wonder if anyone can help, here goes
I have Michael Barker and his wife Mary (ages recorded as 20 and 15 resp) and daughter Elizabeth (1 month) in 1841 living in Prescot, Lancashire. They have further children, Mary Ann b1843, Catherine b1845 and James b1848. I think Michael dies in 1853, as Mary remarries (Henry Twist) in 1858. In 1861 I have her with her new husband and Catherine and James. Mary Ann is with her grandmother (Phoebe Smith) and about to marry John Eden the following year. Catherine marries in 1870 and James in 1873.
My problem is the family seem to have disappeared in 1851. I've flogged Ancestry to death trying to find them so would be really grateful for a second pair of eyes, or someone with access to 1851 elsewhere.
I'm not sure exactly where Michael was born. The only time I have found him is the 1841 census (Class: HO107; Piece 516; Book: 10; Civil Parish: Prescot; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 21; Folio: 25; Page: 12; Line: 20; ), which records him as being born in Ireland . I'm assuming that the Thomas and Catherine Barker earlier on the same page are possibly his parents - father's name from his marriage cert is Thomas.
Thomas and Catherine are still in Par Stocks in 1851 which gives Thomas pob as Ireland and Catherine as Holland! No sign of Michael and family though.
I'd be really grateful for another pair of eyes.
Thanks
Chris

Hi Chris,

I have had a look through the 1851 and the only michael and mary that i can see are living in prescot road, however, the names of the children are completely wrong! I even tried looking under baker incase in was transcribed incorrectly, perhaps someone else will have more luck.
Just in case you didn't know the ages in the 1841 census were rounded up and down to the nearest 5 or 10 so mary was probably older than 15.

regards susan

Thanks for looking Susan.
I have Mary's baptism as 16 Dec 1821 from IGI.
I've tried all the mis transcriptions I can think of but to no avail.
I have daughter Mary Ann's birth cert in 1843 and the address is Parr Stocks at that time.
Perhaps someone else will be inspired.
Thanks again
Chris

Hi Chris
In 1841 Parr for father Thomas is states not born county, not Ireland. Catherine bn Ire, Mary 15 bn Ire, Thos bn Ire is only 10?? down the coal mines.
I've seen your corrections in Ancestry for their names.
1851 Parr
Thos is 70 and lists birthplace as Yorkshire.
We know Catherine is listed as bn Holland.
Young Thos bn Ire is listed as 24 coal miner.
Did Catherine die in 1855 Prescot?
Thomas 1855/56?
Do you know what happened to young Thomas.
Thanks me dear
Tina

Hi Tina,
Thanks for your reply. I don't know what happened to any of the other Barkers at the mo. As it is Michael and his wife who are my direct proven ancestors it is them I have followed. I only found Thomas and Catherine very recently and haven't chased their deaths at this point as I didn't know if I would be on a wild goose chase.
Can't decide where Thomas was born - Lancashire or Yorks.
Can't even begin to think how to find the marriage of Thomas and Catherine and if the children seem to have been born in Ireland, that is probably also a dead end. I have Irish ancestors on my mothers side too which have proved dead ends.
Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for taking the time to look.
Chris

Hi

Re Catherine's birthplace, 'Holland'. I think this is more likely to be either Upholland or Down Holland, nr Wigan, not far from St Helens. I am researching a family at the moment from Upholland, who are listed as 'Lancashire, Holland' on census returns.

Simone x

Hi again

Could this be Micahel and Mary's marriage, taken from Lancs OPC

Marriage: 16 Jun 1839 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
Michael Barker - minor Labourer Bachelor of Parr
Mary Harrison - (X), minor Spinster of Parr
Groom's Father: Thomas Barker
Bride's Father: James Harrison, Collier
Witness: John Kaye, (X); Hannah Johnson, (X)
Married by Banns by: William Jeff, Minister
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1845, Page 59, Entry 117
Source: LDS Film 1655236 item 2

Simone x

Hi Simone
Marriage looks a good find! Both were minors, still under age in 1841 census.
Cheers
Tina

Hi

I wonder if Thomas b 1831 could the soldier in Surrey in 1861?

RG9; Piece: 435; Folio: 51; Page: 6;


Also re Phoebe Smith - I take it she has been married twice? I have her in 1851 I think, transcribed as 'South' - she has 1 son with her named Richard Harrison which would be right if the marriage I have for Mary Harrison to Michael Barker is right - HO107; Piece: 2195; Folio: 461; Page: 61-
I assume you have this entry also as there is a correction to Smith?
Son Joseph's name definitely looks like South though doesn't it

Simone x

Hi All
Mary A Barker 17 with grannie in 1861, it's hard to read Phoebe's surname.
Have a look peepers please.
RG9/2753/2/42
Tina

Hi Simone and Tina
Thank you so much for your interest and helpful suggestions.
I had never thought about Catherine being born in Up Holland (or Down! I've never actually heard of Down Holland). I'll have to do a little searching around that. It's confusing because on the 1841 census she states born Ireland, but 1851 it's "Holland".
As you correctly pointed out Tina, Thomas seems to have been born Yorks, according to 1851.
Yes, that is the correct marriage of Michael Barker and Mary Harrison - I have that certificate.
From the IGI I have Mary's christening as
16 DEC 1821 Prescot, Saint Helens, Lancashire, England, parents James Harrison and Phoebe Roughley.
Can't actually find this on the Land OPC though.
Yes, Phoebe has been married twice to my knowlegde,
Feb 1811 to James Harrison (6 children between 1814 and 1832ish!)
I think Simone, you are then right that she marries William SOUTH, not Smith
10 OCT 1831 Saint Helens, Lancashire, England
On the 1861 census she is transcribed as Smith, but on closer exam it is probably South as you thought in 1851 Simone. I know this is the correct person because she has her grandaughter Mary A Barker living with her.
I can now find Phoebe South in 1841 and 1851, with her Harrison children
As to Thomas Barker (b 1831) that's a very good spot in 1861 and could give me somewhere to look for other Barker births. Not sure how I go about confirming it is him - will have to do some more census digging about I think, but it's a brilliant suggestion. Thanks.

This post started out looking for Michael and his family in the 1851 census, but I think with your help I have now moved on to trying to trace his parents Thomas and Catherine and his birth.
I'll keep you posted if I get any further and if you have any other thoughts I'd be really grateful.

Thanks once again to you both for your help so far.

Chris

Hi Tina,
Last messages crossed - think it is now SOUTH as I've managed to identify the marriage on IGI as above.
Thanks again
Chris

Hi Chris do you have son James's birth cert ??? it will say where they were living at least..and maybe they could still be there in 1851..

Hi Chris
I saw you request to Jim in Lpool where you were hoping his anc fairy may help in 1851 with your Barkers.
Never mind.
Tks to Col you are back up the list in St H.
Tina

Going right through Parr as we speak in 1851 60 pages left.. saw Mikes folks.. also double checked both Greenoughs Row and Broad Oak.. zilch...

If i dont come across them..its possible Mikes moved to another Mine nearby..

Thanks for looking Colette.
No I don't have James' birth cert.
I've tried looking through Parr myself on Ancestry, but to no avail - sometimes you just can't remember what you have and haven't checked.
The next step is probably for me to get hold of what I think is Michael's death cert in 1853 - one of those things I keep putting off. That might help shed some light.
Thanks again for your interest.
Chris

Hi Chris noticed on the 1861 James born in Ireland..do you have him on later census's..if so where does he say hes born????

If he was born Ireland this will be why we cannot find them in 1851..

Colette

Good spot Colette, I had certainly missed that one.
I have him in 1871 (transcribed on Ancestry as Joline Barker) aged 20, born Parr. He marries in 1873 giving his age as 24. I had always assumed he was the James Barker b sept Q 1848 in Prescot.
Will go and see if I can find him in later censuses see what they say.
Thanks
Chris

Hi again Colette,
I think you might be on to something here.
In 1881 he also gives Ireland as place of birth, although in 1891 it is recorded as Atherton (where is is living) - this clearly has no basis, looks like the enumerator is being lazy perhaps
1881 he was 30 and 1891 40, Wonder why he was 24 on his marriage cert?
Think I might have to close the file on this one. Why did they choose this particular time to go to Ireland?
Thanks so much for you help with this Colette.
Chris

Hi Chris yer i recon he was born in Ireland..hes aged 10 in 1861 so born c1850..wonder if Michael wanted to take his family over maybe to meet other relatives Grandparents etc...

Its up to you if you want to take a chance and get the cert for 1848 just for piece of mind really..

Anyway if he was born 1850 then they were there for a wee while not being on the 1851.