Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello all,

I am hoping somebody on this lovely forum might be able to kindly offer me a bit of their time (10 mins or so!) to take a look at some Census listings? I have hit a real brick wall with my current line and feeling most frustrated. I am inept at searching 'en mass' records accurately and seem to miss out key things . It's my fault however, I am only on Ancestry, and do find searching on there tricky! I could do with an bit of an accurate head to help me with this one...

If anyone out there could help... I am trying to find the Mother of Gt Gt Grandmother, MARY ANN MORRIS born circa 1854 in Liverpool. Mary Ann married twice. Once in 1871 to Anton Frederickson at St Matthew CoE. She was a Minor and the Father is THOMAS MORRIS listed as a Joiner.

She is tragically widowed in 1873 and remarries in 1876 to a James Brown at St Georges CoE. Father is Thomas Morris again, but this time with 'deceased' by his name. Again, Thomas is listed as a 'Joiner.'

I then get terribly muddled! I can find no siblings for Mary Ann that I can definitely confirm, nor any further information on her Father Thomas and who he therefore might have been married to! I have unproven records for 1851 Census in No 3 Court, Maddox St, where he might be a Joiner (40), a wife is listed - Mary (37) and a son Thomas (7) too. But I can't link it to anything - I'm clutching at the 'Joiner' bit.

I have a Census record for 1861 at Eldon St, where he is listed as a Joiner age 50 I think, his Son Thomas is a Joiner (17), and a Mary Ann is here (7) There is a funny squiggle in the 'Condition' column of this and I can't decide if it means widowed or not. No wife is listed anyway.

So the dates of those 2 Census add up in terms of the ages tallying but it doesn't help me confirm if it's 'my' family, or who Thomas's wife therefore is?

I have searched GRO all ends up to try and find 2 matching MMN of a Thomas and Mary, in the hope of finding a common MMN. The only one I found was MMN Kelly (Thomas born 18520 and Mary Ann born 1854 which seems to tie in.) There are also a John (1859) and Catherine (1857) listed under Morris / Kelly. However, This is a Catholic line. I recently discovered the Morris/Kelly marriage in Sep 1851 at St Antonys. This goes against the definite information that I have that when Mary Ann married - both times she marries CoE.

I am unsure of the defined Catholic/Protestant streets to know if either Maddox St or Eldon St point to RC / CoE

The background of my family tell me they will have been Liverpool based. ALL of that line have multiple children so I am surprised not to have more links of siblings - however, if the 1861 is the right one, maybe she had died by then? The name doesn't help me in my searches - there are zillions!

Where I am at - I am trying to find (if it's even possible) to search 1841/51/61/71 Censuses in Liverpool for a Thomas Morris - Joiner. Thinking of trying to rule out all of the Thomas Morris Joiners or find a common connection! Would that even help? I'm feeling so confused I can't think straight with this line!

Any wisened thoughts are most welcome.

Thank you.
Mx

A child has no say what religion they are born in to and therefore we can not automatically assume they follow that religion throughout their lives. Later on in life they do have a say in what church they marry, whether it's with or without the approval of their parents, it doesn't change their father's occupation and it may be a decision taken to please their partners.

I think you need sight of the 1851 marriage certificate to confirm, occupation, ages, etc.

The 1861 census looks like Thomas was recorded as Widower, which suggest his wife died between 1854 and 1861, ages from the marriage cert may help with that?

You can actually do that search on Findmypast, maybe get a two week free trial if you feel you need it.

I can tell you that I've done a search and find that the only census for the 1851 and 1861 are the ones that you have found with Thomas, joiner and daughter Mary Ann, born around the correct date. Unfortunately the earlier one with wife, gives birthplace as Wales. I know the dates are a little out but that's not out of the ordinary.

The confusing part is Thomas age 17, who I'm suspecting may not be the product of the same Thomas and Mary, although it could be worth your while investigating the 1851 census in Maddock Street with the son 7 years old and mother Mary from Shropshire, there is a visitor Charlotte Arnold in the household, and I always think its worth investigating visitors, could be a mother?

Thank you all so much.

I have some time later in the week to pick the hints and tips up and try again to unlock some more information. Mary - I thought the same about Thomas 'junior' maybe being the product of another wife.

I know factually this line of the family has flitted between CoE and RC. They are desperately poor and focus seems more on survival at times than religion. Many a 'shotgun' wedding taking place too... Mary Ann's daughter from her first marriage - Mary Louisa Frederickson seems to have been born in the CoE as she is baptised RC aged 23 and marries RC 2 years later.

It is my own Grandmother who used to tell me her family used to "change religion depending on what day of the week it was!" So I can believe that Maybe Mary Ann Morris, married twice CoE, may have had parents who married RC...

I shall let you know my findings (if any!) Thank you for taking the time to help me. It's so very much appreciated. It' so important to me.

Mx

Hello Horsely,

I am just returning to the forum after a long break, and your post caught my eye.
After reading this forum string, I have added your family's details to my ancestry tree and began searching for your family.

The 1861 Census Thomas Morris is living in Elson street, Liverpool. Thomas Morris, Widowed, aged 50 , Joiner.
Living with him is Thomas Jnr, 17 yrs. a Joiner also.
I Note that many of the other people listed on this census pages are shipping and dock workers. So that lead me to wonder whether he was a Ships Joiner,
With that in mind I believe I went searching further census records.The following could be the son, Thomas Jnr.

Thomas Morris on the 1871 census, living in Cookson street, St Marks, Liverpool. Listed as a boarder, aged 28yrs, unmarried, occupation a Shipwright.

Source Citation
The National Archives; Kew, London, England; 1871 England Census; Class: RG10; Piece: 3778; Folio: 27; Page: 47; GSU roll: 841890 Description
Enumeration District: 12

I also looked into Anton Fredrikson (note the spelling in the signature on the marriage certificate), it would appear that the surname Fredrikson is spelled in various ways on the records that I found. It seems that his death was quite tragic, and found the following article about the "Atlantic's" fate that I thought might interest you.
https://www.halifaxtoday.ca/remember-th ... 73-1331345

With regards to Mary Morris' mothers name, I am still looking for you.
Hopefully some other clue with show up soon.

To continue with this thread, use the new forum.
https://forum.lswlfhs.org.uk/?q=node/21