Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

As things are quite quiet on the forum at present I thought I would call upon the wisdom of the membership for some advice, in preparation for a visit to Liverpool and Birkenhead later in the year. I am not seeking a look-up as such.

My great grandfather John Johnstone died at his home at 14 Garrick Street, Edge Hill on 21 April 1903. He was aged 64. I can’t find what happened to him after that.

Since Toxteth Park Cemetery lies at the Southern end of Garrick Street*, that is where I would have expected him to be buried. However a check of both Billo’s and the Anderson transcriptions indicates that he isn’t there. This is even more surprising as between 1905 and 1927 one of his daughters, a daughter-in-law, 3 grandchildren and his widow were buried there in a family plot (section 14, grave 457). Perhaps the order books will eventually tell me who purchased the grave. And I can’t find him in any of the other cemeteries or churchyards which are searchable online. For reasons which are too long to go into here, I don’t think it is very likely that he was buried elsewhere, even though he was not a native of Liverpool, having been born in Edinburgh.

To my mind that leaves two other possibilities, on which your advice would be welcome. Either he was cremated (not particularly common in 1903) or he is buried in a burial ground which has yet to have its records transcribed. I am unclear whether any cremation records exist for Anfield crem (the only one in Liverpool at that time, I think) covering this period, and if so, where they might be held. I assume that the Liverpool Crematorium Company itself is long gone, but might Anfield Cemetery have any information on cremations going back to before the Corporation took it over? If I have understood correctly, Liverpool Record Office only holds some crem records (352 CRE) from 1908 onwards (ie when the Corporation took over the Crem). Interestingly, elsewhere in the LRO holdings there is a series of photographs (352 ENG/2/.. - all dated 1958) of a book(s?) of remembrance, without indicating where the original books are held. Does anyone know if they are still at the Crem? There are no memorials to John in the precincts of the crematorium.

And so my second question is: what is the extent of the burial transcriptions to date? Do the microfilm holdings still contain details which have yet to be digitised? For instance, I can’t find any online database for the Everton Cemetery, although I have no reason to think he might be buried there. Obviously a local churchyard might be a possibility. I am pretty sure he was CofE, and I have checked all the church burial registers listed on Ancestry without success. The local parish church of St Dunstan does not/did not have a burial ground. I can’t find any online index of burials at the former Presbyterian church of St Andrew’s Toxteth Park (283 AND) or St James’s Toxteth (283 JAM) which appear to be the only churches nearby with graveyards.

And for the sake of completeness I haven’t found any death notices in the online newspaper archives. That is another task for my visit.

As an aside, does anyone know the relative costs of being cremated or buried at this time, and if the cost of a parish burial was different (cheaper, possibly) to a municipal burial?

* perhaps I should say, ‘used to lie’ as from the images of boarded-up houses on Google street view dated 2015, Garrick St has probably been demolished by now.

I don't know enough to give an informed answer - but I'm hoping I know somebody who does I've asked Katie to respond, she knows more than anybody I know about the records held at the RO.

Anfield Crematorium was opened by Lord Derby in 1896 and was privately owned by shareholders. In 1908 Liverpool Corporation purchased the Crem hence why the records start at 1908. Underneath the Crem in the Crypt are the burials of the cremated remains. You can rule out Allerton Cemetery as this did not open till 1910. This leaves Anfield Cem/West Derby Cem/Everton Cem/St. James Cem. I would try West Derby Cemetery first.

My first choice of Cemetery was correct.

West Derby Cemetery.

Entry number: 21041
Date of Burial: 24th April 1903
Age: 64yrs
Name: Johnstone, John
Profession: Army Pensioner
Abode: 14, Garrick Street.
Parish: West Derby
Mode of Burial: Subsequent (there are others buried in the plot and it is a Private Grave)
Section 6
Grave Number: 390
Church of England Section.

Thanks so much, Katie,
That's him. I didn't find him when I searched the Robert and Rose Anderson listing for West Derby. Perhaps they only list MIs which have survived, whereas I assumed their listings were based on the burial registers. Now all I need to is find out when and in exactly which parish he was born. Pre-1855 Scottish records are a nightmare!

Burial Katie found,

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cat=405467

Also records available here,
viewforum.php?f=43

Not IE friendly, use other browsers.

Andy,

If it helps?

Well done and thanks Katie and Bert.

Andy try browsing http://www.dustydocs.com/country-show/2/Scotland.html I've had some good results for Scotland on there.

Hi Bertie and Mary A,

Yes thanks, that is his marriage. I have most of the details about him from the age of 18(?) onwards because he joined the Army and served in India and later in South Wales. His wife Mutter was the daughter of a fellow sergeant in the 79th (Cameron Highlanders) Regiment. She was born in Quebec while her father was stationed there. Throughout her life in censuses and elsewhere including her burial MI, she is referred to by different names such as Moutie, Montie and Monty. I'm not sure if she was known by a nickname within the family, but it seems odd that Montie would appear on her gravestone if that was not how she was known in life. I assume that my grandfather William (the second son) was responsible for her funeral arrangements as he was living in Liverpool at the time.

My earlier comment about the difficulty in finding his (John's) actual date and place of birth comes about because prior to the introduction of official registration for BMDs in Scotland in 1855, you have rely on the old parish registers, many of which were lost. He claimed to be 18 when he joined the Army on 22 June 1855, but it was not at all uncommon to find that people lied about their age on joining (it was during a big recruiting campaign as the Crimean war was at its height in 1855). This would have placed his year of birth as 1837-8, yet other sources (eg the marriage entry) indicate a later date. For example, he was said to be 64 when he died in April 1903, which would move the year of birth forward by at least 12 months. I believe his birthday was between the middle of July and the middle of August, so perhaps his birth date was July/August 1838, meaning that he was definitely under 18 when he joined up. The second obstacle is that throughout the documentation he says he was born in the parish of Greyfriars, Edinburgh. However the parish of Greyfriars had disappeared many years before his birth as a place for recording baptisms, although it contiunued as a place of burial. He was therefore either mistaken or was using the name of a local area of Edinburgh (to the South of Edinburgh Castle) rather than the administrative parish. Greyfriars parish was absorbed into Edinburgh City for administrative purposes (see the map in this link). Either way there's no trace of a birth of a John Johnstone (or Johnston) born 1837-39 in that area with a father also named John. If you widen the search, some possibles emerge but they can be eliminated in most cases because the same person appears in the Edinburgh Census of 1861 when my ggf was in India. And thanks Mary for your link. I had tried that one before, along with ScotlandsPeople but without any real success.

Anyway, as that is all way outside the geographical area covered by this forum, I will leave it there, lest I incur the wrath of the Admins!

If we are able to help we are happy to, no matter what the area covered, which is why I suggested browsing dustydocs, where I have had some luck finding parish registers that haven't made their way onto Scotlandspeople.

Thanks Mary, that's really helpful. Sometimes brickwalls only appear insurmountable when they are looked from the same direction. A fresh pair of eyes can often see things from a different perspective.

The Andersons’ work has been transcription of memorials, not of registers. A great resource, too!
D