Redmond/Redman

[LThompson]

Searching for relatives of Arthur Redman born Redmond who once lived at 22 Amos St. Everton, Liverpool. His sister was my grandmother, Lilian Redmond b 1892 Heaton Norris. His 4 siblings were sent to Canada has home children but Arthur remained in England. Other children Frances P Redmond b 1894 West Derby, Thomas Redmond b 1896 Stockport, Lucy Redmond b 1900 West Derby. Any information on Arthur or his descendants would be greatly appreciated.

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. We have put together some suggestions for researching forwards to living people here https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewt ... =14&t=8154 hope you find them useful.

[Bertieone]

Hi and welcome,

At 22 Amos Street, 1920/25 are Arthur Redman and Elizabeth Redman. Assuming they are not brother and sister.

Arthur Redman married Elizabeth Lloyd, Liverpool, 1913, father, Thomas Redman.

First born, Arthur Redman, 1914, mothers maiden name, Lloyd.

Forward to the 1939 register, Arthur Redman, birth date, 28 July 1886.

Arthur Redman, GRO birth registration, Sept Qtr, 1886, mmn, Culshaw

Marriage, Thomas Redman/Mary Agnes Culshaw, 1884, West Derby

It doesn't appear this Arthur used the name Redmond.

[Bertieone]

Is this Lilian?

REDMOND, LILIAN, mmn, SHARROCKS
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in STOCKPORT Volume 08A Page 41

Parents probably John Redmond/ Alice Sharrocks

[LThompson]

Good morning. Arthur and my grandmother's mother was Mary Agnes Culshaw. My apologies, I should have put down his lineage as we know.
Thank you for sending in a suggestion. Lois Thompson

[LThompson]

Re: Bertieone. Yes this is the same family and I have come to the same conclusions. Does anyone have any information regarding their son Arthur? You are right, he was born a Redmond and his siblings continued to use Redmond as a surname. Not sure why Arthur changed to Redman. I have quite a bit about Mary Agnes Culshaw, when she remarried and who whom but Arthur is the missing relative. Many thanks, Lois Thompson

[Bertieone]

The point I was making, Arthur Redman never changed his name, GRO birth registration below,

[LThompson]

Thank you Bert! The mother's name is correct. What is surprising is all his siblings births are recorded as Redmond. I know his parents were illiterate. I wonder if his name was recorded incorrectly when registering his birth? Another piece of information I have is that his merchant seaman number was 866222. I appreciate your diligence and patience with me. Lois Thompson

[Bertieone]

Lois,

The following are searches I made, GRO registration, 1884-1908.

Children born, surname, Redmond, mothers maiden name, Culshaw. None recorded with that combination, England & Wales.

Not suggesting the following are from the same family, more work needed.

GRO registration, 1884-1908

Surname, Redman, mmn, Culshaw,

All registered West Derby,

Edith Redman, 1884
Lillie Redman, 1892
Bertha Redman, 1893

Arthur Redman, 1886
Thomas Redman, 1891

[Bertieone]

Edith's baptism, 1885, parents, Thomas & Mary Agnes Redman.

Lillie's Baptism, 1892, Parents, Arthur & Mary Redman.

Bertha possibly died same year as birth.1893
Thomas Redman, possibly died 1892.

Can you tell us where the information was found for the 4 children,

Lillian 1892
Frances P 1894
Thomas 1896
Lucy 1900

[LThompson]

Hi Bert, In regards to your research:
Edith's baptism, 1885, parents, Thomas & Mary Agnes Redman.
-- I have no record of an Edith. Granted I was searching under Redmond.
Lillie's Baptism, 1892, Parents, Arthur & Mary Redman.
-- father was Thomas not Arthur
Bertha possibly died same year as birth.1893
-- I have the Christening records for a Bessie Redmond: Name Bessie Redmond, Gender Female, Christening Age 0 Birth Date 12 Jul 1893, Christening Date 11 Aug 1893, Christening Place Anfield, Lancashire, England,FatherThomas Redmond, Mother Mary Agnes Redmond. I could find no further records for Bessie.
Thomas Redman, possibly died 1892.
-- Thomas came to Canada as a home child in 1905. More information below:

Can you tell us where the information was found for the 4 children,

Lillian 1892
-- My grandmother born April 3, 1892. I remember her birthdate well. Lilian came to Canada as a homechild in 1905. We requested and received a copy of the handwritten copies from Annie MacPherson organization, which were taken over by the Bernardo Society. All information corresponds with this birthdate.
Frances P 1894
-- Frances and my grandmother remained close until Frances' death in 1927 in Pittsburgh. Death certificate says birth date: Aug. 30, 1896 England. She married Albert Gaesa in Canada.
Thomas 1896
-- Came to Canada as a home child in 1905. Birthdate coincides with Annie MacPherson's records. Border crossing where he was denied entry into the US in 1921. Lists his next of kin as Mrs. Lily Morris (my grandmother) and going to visit his sister Mrs. A. Gaesa and his age is listed as 25.

Lucy 1900
-- Came to Canada as a home child in 1904. Passenger list states she was in the care of Mrs. Brit who worked for Annie MacPherson and her age is listed as 3.

Regarding the below information:
The following are searches I made, GRO registration, 1884-1908.

Children born, surname, Redmond, mothers maiden name, Culshaw. None recorded with that combination, England & Wales.

Not suggesting the following are from the same family, more work needed.

GRO registration, 1884-1908

Surname, Redman, mmn, Culshaw,

All registered West Derby,

Edith Redman, 1884
-- unknown
Lillie Redman, 1892,
--matches
Bertha Redman, 1893,
--I have a Bessie

Arthur Redman, 1886
Thomas Redman, 1891,
-- I have a birthdate of 1896. Maybe two children born and named Thomas Redman?

[Bertieone]

Lillian 1892
-- My grandmother born April 3, 1892. I remember her birthdate well. Lilian came to Canada as a homechild in 1905. We requested and received a copy of the handwritten copies from Annie MacPherson organization, which were taken over by the Bernardo Society. All information corresponds with this birthdate.

Odd?
Baptism, Everton, Emmanuel,

Same Birth date, April 3. Father deceased.

[LThompson]

Hi Bert,
Close but no cigar. Always good to eliminate red herrings.
My grandmother was Lilian not Lillian, and her father is Thomas not Arthur.
Father died early 1904. This was confirmed by a story my grandmother told of her kissing her dad in his coffin as a young child.
I was wondering if I had incorrect information when I discovered a Lilian and a Lillian Redman both born the same day which is quite a coincidence.
The family is in a state of shock learning our grandmother was a Redman not a Redmond.
I cannot thank you enough for your discoveries.
Cheers

[Bertieone]

Bessie REDMOND, Parents, Thomas/Mary Agnes
Birth, 12 July 1893,
Baptised, 11 Aug, 1893
7 ASH GROVE.

Bertha REDMAN,
Burial, 24 Aug, 1893, 1 month old.
9 ASH GROVE

[MaryA]

My grandmother was Lilian not Lillian, and her father is Thomas not Arthur.

I would urge you to keep Bert's find in mind. The difference of an extra or missing letter in the name is really not relevant - who wrote that entry? did they know for certain the spelling of the name? were the child's parents literate and read the entry to check it? You yourself have used both spellings just in this post - and Lillie is used as much.

The difference between Thomas and Arthur ...... well if Thomas was deceased could the mother have remarried to an Arthur and brought up the child as his own? Lilian may never have known that she had a different parent.

I feel the "coincidence" of exactly the same birthdate and name is just too much to overlook.

[LThompson]

Thank you Mary, you have made an excellent point. Yes, the parents were illiterate as Mary Agnes signed her marriage certificate to John William Colwell with an "x". The story my grandmother told was that she remembers kissing her father in his coffin shortly before the family being split up and a year later she was sent to Canada. The timing seems to be accurate but you are saying is perhaps the man she kissed was Mary Agnes 2nd husband. It should also be noted that my grandmother had a tendency to sanitize history. My cousin and I talked last night and she said our grandmother let it slip once when asked for the spelling of her maiden name. She said Redman, Redmond, all the same to her. It is logical that the first husband would name his first son after himself and the second husband would name his first son after himself.
Identical twins run in the maternal family, is it possible Bertha and Bessie were twins? Please confirm that Ash Grove is an address.
Again thank you both Mary and Bert for making me rethink this entire situation. Lois

[Bertieone]

Lois,

Yes, Ash Grove is an address.
If this is her second marriage, note, she would have been 12 years old when having Edith and 14 years old when having Arthur.

[LThompson]

Hello Bert, Family stories say that Mary Agnes Redmond Culshaw married a Bill Colwell. I have checked and the legal marrying age in England in the 1800s was 14 for boys and 12 for girls. My next step is to create a timeline and look for documentation to back the information on the timeline. I contacted Bill Colwell's family descendant but they have nothing on Mary Agnes Redmond Culshaw. Limited information on John William Colwell.
Interesting is that Lilian had very dark curly hair. Thomas, on his entry to the US, was listed as blonde and Francis was quite fair in her pictures as am adult. No pictures of Lucy beyond the age of about 2.
We do have two pieces of physical evidence. One is the envelope addressed to Arthur Redman, 22 Amos St, Everton, Liverpool and on the back is written "Lily's brother". I am hoping his descendants have more facts as Arthur was the oldest. Second is a postcard sent by Mary Agnes to Lily from the Elan Valley in Wales where she is working. It is written in a beautiful hand. After seeing the marriage certificate, we assumed that the postcard was written by someone else for Mary Agnes.
You are a charm and I am so glad to have found you and Mary as I must rethink and re-research. I am quite anxious to find a descendant of Arthur Redman as I am hoping they are the key.

[Bertieone]

Lois,

have you got this?

Arthur Redman, 866222

[MaryA]

Well done Bert, gotta love a photo.